Thanks to the fine folks at the Capes and Lunatics podcast, I got to have a fun chat with longtime Marvel writer and editor D.G. Chichester, catching up for the first time in many years. We talked about working on Spider-Man and Daredevil, the early days of Epic Comics, the ups and downs of the freelance life, and other things. Enjoy!
Great podcast, lots of stuff to talk about.
ReplyDeleteThe stretch of the Clone Saga where you and DeFalco were writing Peter's adventures while Kavanagh and Mackie were writing Ben's worked well. The 2 and 2 pairings were more cohesive than the stories divvied up 4 ways. I also enjoyed the way Peter & Ben were kept from interacting a while (the Unlimited story where they worked the same situation without meeting was well done).
Daredevil's cameo shocked me at the time, I was like why is he giving Peter such terrible advice?? So naturally I looked into it! Nicely played, Mr Daredevil writer.
I'm curious what you thought of the youth vampire Vulture. I was never too keen on the redesign (Ditko's Vulture is too cool to mess with imo). But the concept itself felt worthy of a new character not named Toomes. I liked his team up with the Owl at any rate.
--David
I don't recall much about that version of the Vulture, David, but I suspect I preferred the classic Vulture.
DeleteYes, it was fun doing crossovers with just two writers instead of four. Made things a lot more manageable and consistent across all parts. And Tom D is a delight to work with.
Well sure, poor Tommy D was probably too terrified of your rock persona to be anything BUT delightful!
Delete--David
I can guarantee Tom was never intimidated by me in the least!
DeleteDematteis, did you eve notice that Captain America was a military man who was preserved and revived in the future, with the last name of "Rogers," and that also describes Buck Rogers.
ReplyDeleteThat's weird, right?
JAck
Time for a Cap/Buck Rogers crossover!
DeleteI would read a Cap/Buck Rogers crossover!
DeleteI also love D.G. Chichester's time traveling Daredevil pitch. Weird to think that in many ways 1960s NYC would be as alien now as turn of the century NYC. But 70s-80s NYC is so thoroughly baked into the character's dna post-Miller that contemporary DD stories feel a bit off. The same is true of The Daily Bugle, which coalesced conceptually around Watergate. It's difficult to imagine in the current media landscape. Roxxon would buy it and fire Jonah for his integrity. (Last I checked JJJ is a podcast journalist, which sort of brings him back to his cub reporter days.
Anyway, Matt would miss the comforts of modernity, but Daredevi would feel quite at home beating up Bill "The Butcher" Cutting up in Gangs of New York.
--David
It really is a great idea and I hope Dan gets to do it!
DeleteMy guess is that Matt would probably loathe the 19th century. ON one hand, yes there would be less cacophony in the city due to their being fewer cars, phones, electricity, subway lines, buses, and of course, fewer people. However, something tells me that heightened senses in the era before indoor plumbing would not be a picnic. Especially since there was actual livestock in the city back then.
DeleteAlso, Mark Waid made one of the most interesting takes on the nature of time travel in his mini-series Captain America: Man out of Time, which was a sort of retelling of Caps revival in time for the Avengers movie.
In it, Cap actually DOES return to the 40s, only to realize seeing a world where rampant sexual harassment and racism are expected makes him uncomfortable. There is even a scene where he goes to try and watch a Yankee game in the Black only section, thinking that he is mending bridges, only to realize that the man he is trying to have a conversation with thinks this is Steve making fun of him in front of his son. Steve ultimately chooses to return to the then-present, finding himself more a home int eh world of social progress.
Daredevil may enjoy beating Billy the Butcher... but what about watching those Irish immigrants treating Black Americans at the time as subhuman? Or just getting jobs because they are not Black, despite the anti-Irish sentiment? Or the treatment of Native Americans on the other side of the country? Age it up to a point, and what about the Draft Riots in New York? He would have to hear a lot about people not wanting to be drafted...SPECIFICALLY because they did not thinkk ending slavery was worth it. THat is all pretty weird to 21st century ears.
Of course, there is the REAL question form the Cap/Buck Rogers connection...
Why is it that there have been more than one what If (even if not by name) where Cap is thawed in what ever "now" is, but never looking at what it would be like if he had been thawed in a far future? Maybe in a Dystopian future where he is needed. There HAVE been times he vistied, but as far as I can remember not where he was thawed. Seems like a borderline obvious choice when you consider how many dystopian futures Marvel has, in fact, until 1980 a Dystopian Future was the guaranteed future!
JACk
It's amazing that there was never a "Captain Rogers in the 25th Century" story in WHAT IF? It's such a great idea.
DeleteEspcially when you consider some of the alternate futures we have seen...
Delete-The O.G. Guardians of the Galaxy/Killraven future, with Badoon and Martin domination of Earth.
-Femizonia and its polar opposite world ruled by Makizmo
-Days of Future Past
-Deathlok
-Seekers 3000 (your favorite)
Any of them would be interesting to have Cap wke-up in some form of, with his brand of heroism in these worlds would be interesting to say the least.
Thhen there are all teh posible futures that could be drawn from OUTSIDE of comics...yes, those DO exist. Everything from a Ferenheiht 451 style universe all teh way to an optimistic Star Trek style future. After all, Cap's heroism would cerainly be appreciated, but in a world that has moved beyond borders and nations, what does that mean for Captain AMERICA, even if it is less about hima and more about how teh society might have prejudices against a man named afer a nation. Afterall, I believe it was Jean Luc Picard who refered to a WWII military uniform as a 'costume.'
It just seems like an obvious, "What If" idea, right?
Jack
Hey Jack, how's it going?
DeleteI think you're 100% right that Matt would not enjoy old New York. As for seeing how Irish immigrants were treated, well, Matt tends to channel his rage into Daredevil, so I guess the question is whether he would lose himself in the brutality of the era. Matt's a decent if broken guy so I suspect he would ultimately choose his humanity over his rage...but of course, his path would be littered with bad choices that make for interesting stories!
--David
It's such a cool idea. I really hope Dan gets to do it.
DeleteI agree, Jack!
DeleteChichester is a great writer and I'd be very interested to see where he would take Matt and readers.
DeleteBTW, that cover with Matt in the yellow costume on the gravestone is so good, I still remember exactly where I was when I first saw it (I was strolling through Walmart after work, back when they had a comics rack).
I love what you were attempting to do with that story, JMD, and it's a shame Marvel didn't embrace that direction. Though as with your Cap story, Marvel did ultimately go with something similar...always ahead of your time!
One of the things I love about the character is how he tries to compartmentalize his Daredevil(s) and Matt(s) personas and eventually the walls come crashing down. A devout Catholic wearing the devil's skin, beating crooks to a pulp then defending them in court the next day...what's not to love?
--David
That's what makes him so interesting: He's a walking mass of contradictions!
DeleteActually David my point was not about whether he would lose himself in the brutality of the era, it is about how modern sensibilities work in the past.
DeleteThink about Archie Bunker from All int eh Family. He was only about 20-30 years removed form Mike an Gloria, an remember how out of touch he seemed? An I would remind everyone, Archie was not supposed to be a completely unrealistic person, he was supposed to be similar to real New Yorkers of the creator's generation.
Even in my own life I could say that it was fairly common as a a teenager to use the r-word to describe someone as being dumb, an now it is incredibly embarrassing that it happened.
But with Matt going back in time we are talking about someone who has ha a lot of progress. What is it like to a 21st century person, especially one often regard as a people's hero, to hear slurs an see very real injustices that avenging might make him the villain in many people's eyes.
Now, there COULD be a very interesting story there. We descendants of European ancestry have sort of mythologized the struggles of our ancestors. And it is not without reality, my Polish Prussian Great Grandfather was a carpenter who had his work torn down at night, and treated poorly during World War I because of his accent. We even make claims like "The Italians were not considered white" Or "Slavic people were not considered white" or what have you. While there is SOME truth to that, in America white usually meant not-Black. There is a reason slavery did not fully end until 1942.
NO, THAT WAS NOT A a TYPO! The last chattel slave was a man named Alfred Irving, freed from Slavery in 1942. You can find the newspaper article online. It is because of debt peonage, which kept many Black Americans in the same conditions as slavery, and was even deemed to be slavery by the courts a few decades beforehand, however the court also noted that while slavery was unconstitutional, it was not actually illegal. The practice was only ended because it was viewed as potential for anti-American propaganda during the war.
Okay, I am getting off topic... the point is, Matt is Irish American. The Irish especially love this story of struggling to find acceptance in America, in part because as the first large wave of immigrants they were the canary on the coal mine.
But a story that shatters that image, and forces Matt to struggle with a reality that not only the law, but society's unconscious biases and self-mythologizing can cover up the blind spots of justice and have long reaching effects. Though admittedly, I think Ann Nocenti may be the only writer willing to cover that.
Or the realization that the Irish, Black, and poor native white population being at each others throats was very much orchestrated by the nations wealthy for their gain. People like to forget that anti-immigrant sentiment always has someone manipulating it for their game, That seems like a very Ann Nocenti topic. You know her Dematteis, am I right?
That having been said, Chiechester just doing a fun time travel story could be a good read to, the point is rather what happens if one pulls on that thread more, like by having Matt get involved with Billy Butcher. It all depends on how far down that road you want to go.
I was simply pointing out how Mark Waid addressed an often overlooked reality of time travel, which admittedly was likely inspired by the then-recent election of the first Black president. No more, no less. Fun jaunts back in time with no focus on America's....let's say, less aspirational realities, are fun too Not everything has to be trapped in cold reality..
Jack
You know Demattteis...
DeleteMarvel could always just say that Steve and Buck are brothers. It would not make much sense, but when has Marvel ever cared about Steve's continuity.
I remember not to long ago,, for issue #750, they had this guy...G.N. Demarcus, or M.J. Siettamed, something like that... had written a story where Steve goes to his buddy Arnie Roth. What is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing.
Although this guy also claimed BOTH of Steve Rogers parents were Irish immigrants.. despite Rogers being an English name, and the Irish, especially of the time, hating the English.
I know, already weird, but this guy also claims to be a huge disciple of jack Kirby, was even one of the very few who will claim adoration for the King's return to Cap in the 70s... in which Steve has a journal form an ancestor who shared his name, and lived IN America in 1776, and was a Captain America in that time period.
However, it actually gets a little weirder, because back in the day he wrote a Silver Surfer Christmas story in the Marvel Holiday special in 1994. That same issue had a story where Steve Rogers remembers going to his grandfather's home for Christmas when the Depression got very bad, where his grandfather showed him the spot where his family hid runaway slaves during the Underground railroad, something hard to do if your family was not in the country.
Since we know comic creators are not capable of memory lapses, I assume the night before he wrote it, he went to an Irish pub for dinner, and got so drunk that he forgot not only all those facts about Steve, but that immigrants can marry non-immigrants. (wink)
That having been said, Marvel is getting kind of squirrely with their mini series and what ifs. There is even going to be a Fantastic Four/Planet of the Apes crossover, complete with Dr. Zaius in February, and only 50 years after that would have made sense.
Galactus is picking everyone from Hulk to SPider-Gwen to be his herald. What if the carnage symbiote reanimated reanimate the corpse of Cletus Cassidy's ancestor. Captain America is fighting Aliens... from the film Aliens, xenomorphs if you will. Spider-MAn fought the Predator... from the film predator.
I am not saying any of these ideas are bad, I am saying it seems to be a lot of "let's see" so Cap in the far future does not seem incredibly unlikely. Or, perhaps, even your idea to have a series where each episode a Marvel character enters the Twilight Zone. Even the idea you have been trying to get made since 1982, where Luke Cage drinks coffee and Iron Fist takes a nap for 22 pages, while they wait for a call. There is no Charlton for you to be threatened to be sent to THIS time, like Shooter said he would do to you if you ever pitched this again.
Think of all the sci-fi comics, short stories, novels, and movies someone could con Marvel into paying them to pour through as research to write a comic about Cap in the future. HA! That would teach them to try and run a profitable business.
Jack
You know Dematteis, I am going to throw THIS idea on top of the fire...
DeleteIt is weird that superheroes in the future is not a bigger sub-genre.
Yes, there is Batman Beyond, and the 2099 stuff. Don;t get me wrong, all good stuff, but it is all about the continuation of some pre-existing tradition. Or some alternate future that must be stopped. And yes, obviously the Legion, but that was from the 60s.
But THAT is the point, there was a time when creating superheroes set in the future did not seem so America-odd. One of if not Denny O'Neils first creation was "The Prankster" for Charlton, which stars a fully costumed superhero in a totalitarian dystopian future,whose concept is oddly familiar to one who has read the Philip K. Dick novel :The Man who Japed." The Atlas/Seaboard comic series Morlock 2001 took place in a future very similar to...are you thinking 2001: A Space Odyssey? Nope, Fahrenheit 451.
The Guardians of the Galaxy even first appeared in Marvel SUPER-HEROES. Now admittedly, they seem more like freedom fighters, but that is ALSO the point.
The Legion of SUPERHEROES, is not like most superheroes... at all. and I a futurescape, you can play along.
It is actually kind of interesting. People like ii so much when superhero comics blend superheroes with non-traditional superhero elements. Frank Miller's crime fiction and noir style revolution with Daredevil comes to mind.
Yet, somehow... sci-fi remains constant window dressing, with very little actual exploration into the genre. Maybe it says something about our society.
Why is Batman considered a superhero, but The Shadow, Zorro, Buck Rogers, Doc Savage, Green Hornet, F Lash Gordon and the Phantom are viewed as "pulp heroes?"
I mean you have said before that you do not consider the New Gods Superheroes... but you consider Thor a Superhero, why? Both fight mostly mythology type-things.
Why do you not consider Len Wein;s Swamp Thing a superhero, but you DO consider the Hulk one. Both are scientists "cursed" by science gone wrong, and in the early day of both seeking a cure. Neither one fought supervillains in their early days.
For that matter, Blade first appeared in a horror comic, but once he became a "superhero" in Marvel's eyes the Vampire;s stopped being horror-like.
Once Hollywood stopped being embarrassed about making superhero movies, they borrowed a lot from 70s Marvel, but sanded a lot of the more unique parts down to fit a more easy to packet superhero formula.
Maybe it is all distinctions without a difference, and decades of categorizing and arranging by fans has put up walls that never needed to be erected in the first place, and robbed people of potential stories.
Jack
"Maybe it is all distinctions without a difference, and decades of categorizing and arranging by fans has put up walls that never needed to be erected in the first place, and robbed people of potential stories." Well said, Jack. In the end, the lines between genres often blend and one man's monster is another man's superhero. Humans seem to need distinctions to make sense of their world and, in the examples you use, the distinctions are blurry, at best.
DeleteThe Luke Cage/Iron Fist idea was later repurposed as Blue Beetle/Booster Gold one-shot, but Andy Helfer wouldn't let us do it, either. ; )
DeleteYou can kind of view genre fiction like the history of the Old West... but with les ,urdergin of Native Americans.
DeleteGenre fiction as we know it starts in teh 1920s, and for a long time it is like the Wild West. They criss-cross and mash together, because people arre just rying to make anythogn work.
After the war, they get a little more civilized. A little more structured, but still it is wild how expansice some of these ideas are in sci-fi, horror, fantasy, and superheroes.
Then the 70s come along, and you have teh people who were raised in this strange new land. Fandom only kind of existed, so they wanted to chart their own course as natives instead of settlers.
Halfway through the 80s, it all gets very structured and defined. After all, we need to know what we are marketing to. ANd, for god;s sake I am a sci-fi fan, I don;t want any of this fantasy in my stories. I am a fantasy fan, don;t cheapen it with horror. This si a superhero comic, dont get all these sci-fi allegories about society in here.
Then the potential is seen, it is bought up by the big corporations and gentrified into somethong even more marketable and consumable, because for God-sake this is Hollywood! Sci-fi means big box office explosions, if you start critiquing society, well society is ho we are selling to...right?
Jack
You really need to write a book collecting all your pop culture insights. I'd read it!
DeleteI would read that too, Jack!
Delete--David
Happy Dick Van Dyke Centennial!
ReplyDeleteYes, as of today the world has had a living Dick Van Dyke for 100 years. A man who by all accounts was as nice off stage as on, and used his platform to champion civil lrights, and rights for women. He even spoke openly about his alcoholism on national television in hopes others would get treatment. Twas on the Dick Cavett show.
A good man has made it to 100, no matter how many times that damned ottoman footstool tried to prevent it from happening.
And unlike Jimmy Carter, DVD had no beef with Howard the Duck
Now, the traditional Dick Van Dyke Centennial electronic present...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExDiUrNygDU
Jack
An amazing man. Happy birthday to him!
DeleteChiechester actually deserves some praise in comics for something no one ever remembers happening.
ReplyDeleteHis big claim to fame was obviously writing Daredevil in the 90s, I however read it in the 2000s/2010s. Why does that matter? Because the internet was not new anymore.
He wrote a story called "Tree of of knowledge." Much of it is the kind of fantastical internet usage that was so common in the 90s, but seems pretty silly in retrospect of the internet becoming what it is.
EXCEPT one page that was burned into my brain, because of when I read it. It talks about how the internet could eventually become a way for dad to expand his business, and mom to stay in touch with old friends, and Jr to experience the wide world and improve his studies. It then states that the internet could lead to a world where Dad uses it to get a hooker, Mom for prescription pills to dull her life, and jr, getting lost in a whole new subculture of youthful alienation.
I might be remembering the positive end in the fine details, but seriously, points for accuracy on the realities on both ends of the spectrum right.
It is interesting that some of the things the 90s predicted about the internet came to be in a round-about way... like entering virtual spaces where you become a form of body you want is not real, but social media could be seen as a substitute.
However, he actually got the reality. That is pretty impressive.
Jack
It is indeed!
Delete