Friday, August 28, 2015

HAIL TO THE KING!

In honor of Jack Kirby’s birthday, here’s an essay I first posted here back in 2010.  Enjoy!



Like most people too in love with their own opinions, I’m fond of sweeping statements, and one of the sweeping statements I often toss out when the subject of comic books comes up is this:  Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, the two formidable talents who forged the Marvel Age of Comics—and, one might argue, all comics that followed—were the Lennon and McCartney of their medium.  Rock and roll and comic books were two of my greatest passions growing up and the link has always seemed obvious to me.  The Beatles, led by John and Paul, redefined popular music in the sixties, just as Marvel, led by Stan and Jack, redefined comics.  (Not that DC was sitting around doing nothing, mind you...any more than Dylan, the Stones and the Who were; but the Beatles and Marvel, at least in this writer’s opinion, were way ahead of the pack.)  But all that blew apart when the decade turned.

Those of you too young to have been comics fans in 1970—that tumultuous twelve months of Kent State, student strikes and Richard Nixon’s sweaty upper lip—can’t begin to grasp the impact that three words—”Kirby Is Here!”—had when they appeared on the cover of, believe it or not, Superman’s Pal, Jimmy Olsen.  I was sixteen, a devoted Marvel follower, and still naive enough to believe that Lee and Kirby were as inseparable as, well, Lennon and McCartney.  Of course 1970 was also the year in which the Beatles publicly disintegrated, as well.  “The dream is over,” John Lennon sang—and it certainly was.  Across the board.  Across the country.  The idealism, the optimism, the inspired lunacy of the sixties—which had spread throughout our culture via music, film, novels, and, yes, comics—was beginning to turn sour.  Let’s face it:  if Stan and Jack, if John and Paul, couldn’t keep it together, what possible chance did the rest of us have?  (This sounds incredibly silly now, but, believe me, this was an unbelievably urgent question then.  At least to me.) 

But the energy and enthusiasm of those years was still pushing us forward and, in some ways, the creative energy of the early seventies surpassed the sixties.  Sure, the Beatles were a dead issue, but the music Lennon produced in the years after the split, most notably the brilliant John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band album, was some of the most powerful, important music rock and roll had ever heard.   (I told you I was fond of sweeping statements.)  And this music was produced as a direct result of Lennon’s boredom with the Beatles, of his pulling away from McCartney’s influence, from the security of success.  He danced out on a limb, the limb held, and the result was Art.


The same can be said of Kirby.  With Lee, he had taken mainstream comics and turned them inside out, upside down, and left his mark forever.  But, as his later Marvel work too clearly showed, he was bored.  How many times can the Thing turn against his partners?  How often can Loki tiptoe past Odin’s bed and usurp the throne of Asgard?  Pretty often—but too often for a restless limb-dancer like Jack Kirby.  As with Lennon, Kirby’s vision was unique, singular; and, if his collaboration with Lee (as important to Marvel’s success as McCartney was to the Beatles’; neither man should be understimated) brought Kirby to new levels, those levels had now been attained, a plateau had been reached, and it was time to move on.  Without collaboration.  Artists, real artists, tend to burn.  When they’ve burned long enough, the smoke starts pouring through their lips and they’ve got to spit the fire out. 

In 1970, Jack Kirby jumped from Marvel to DC and started spitting fire.  The fire was called The New Gods, Mister Miracle, Jimmy Olsen and Forever People.  Books as important to comics as Lennon’s POB album was to rock.  Books that opened new doors, set new standards, did things that comics had never dared to do before.  New Gods was clearly the most focused, perhaps the best of the bunch; Mister Miracle offered the most flat-out fun; Jimmy Olsen was as wonderfully bizarre, in its way, as those Silver Age stories that featured Jimmy turning into aliens, werewolves and giant turtles.  Forever People—which featured Kirby’s cosmic hippies, the embodiment of youth and naivete, idealism and dreams—was my personal favorite; encapsulating, as it did, Kirby’s (and my own) hope for the future.  True, the dialogue in these stories was sometimes awkward—but dialogue was never Kirby’s forte.  Story-telling was.  Spirit was.  Vision was.  And these stories had them all.  They ran, they rambled, they surprised, they exploded.  (The language often did the same thing:  the dialogue, as noted, may have been clunky, but Kirby’s prose was also so wildly passionate, so utterly idiosyncratic, that it achieved a kind of mad poetic grandeur.)  There seemed no definite beginning, middle, or end; there was just the constant search, the quest for an intangible something that could never be defined.  The characters themselves couldn’t be called three dimensional, in the conventional sense, but they existed in a dimension all their own.   Orion and Lightray, Scott and Barda, Big Bear, Serafin, Desaad and, perhaps the greatest villain in the history of comic books, Darkseid:  these were people that I, as a reader, cared passionately about.  I enjoyed their company—and looked forward to their evolution.  Unfortunately, for reasons that I’ve never heard adequately explained, that evolution was cut short.  With the exception of Mister Miracle (which staggered on for several more issues), all the “Fourth World” titles were axed.

But you can’t kill a dream—and these stories live on, resonating not just through the DC Universe but all of popular culture.  The word genius is one that’s often overused, and cheapened by that overuse, but if the comic book business has ever produced a genius, Jack Kirby was it.  And that genius’s magnum opus was unquestionably the “Fourth World” saga.  If you’ve read it before, I urge you to read it again.  If you haven’t read it, I urge you to put aside your preconceptions, grab the first volume of the Fourth World Omnibus and surrender to one of the 20th Century’s master storytellers. 


© copyright 2015 J.M. DeMatteis 

56 comments:

  1. Always love Kirby. I am the proud owner of his runs of Black Panther, Devil Dinosaur and Machine Man. His Panther run was fascinating and the fact that both Devil and Machine Man still inhabit the Marvel Universe says quite a bit. As for DC? The warmest spot would be for The Demon. Just great stuff. Maybe I will go home and read my Fourth World stuff.

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    1. I'm a huge fan of the Demon, Douglas. A classic character that remains important to the DCU today. I don't think I've ever read DEVIL DINOSAUR, but maybe it's time to check it out. My favorite of Kirby's 70's Marvel work is THE ETERNALS: a great book, cancelled way too soon.

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    2. Eternals is a great series. Devil is interesting in its original form as an excuse for a big red Tyrannosaurus Rex fighting caveman and prehistoric monsters. I'm always amazed at how he manages to show up in so many other books. His current appearances in Planet Hulk as Steve Rogers best friend is really well done. Apparently, he will be in a new book this fall; Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur that explores the relationship between a young girl who may or may not be an Inhuman and a big, red T-Rex. I really can't wait for that one.

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    3. Sounds terrific. And it's further proof that even Kirby's lesser ideas have long-lasting impact. I repeat: He was a genius.

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    4. This was emailed to me. Seems to fit.

      http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2015/08/hear-jack-kirby-and-stan-lee-clash-28-years-ago-today/

      Jack

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    5. Wow, I've never heard this, Jack. Thanks for passing it along!

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    6. The end with Stan seems legitimate. Sort of puts a hole in the one creator myth. Its nice.

      I think Lee may have unknowingly predicted the modern problem of comics, early.

      Also, Pip the Troll was at least partially inspired by Kirby.

      Devil Dinosaur is fun. I think it may have been Kirby's attempt to do an all ages book in an era were pushing older and older.

      The Eternals were the one Kirby creation no one could ever do quite right. It was his book. Talented people have come and gone with the characters... the individuals have been good, but never as a group. In a way it may be the truest Kirby book. I think iot may have been cancelled so soon was because cosmic at Marvel was darker and more abstract... and lets be honest, acid inspired. It was just in the wrong place and time. His 2001 was more of the time, oddly Machine Man wasn't.



      Jack

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    7. Sounds like Stan just wanted to say "Happy Birthday, Jack" and didn't expect to get thrown into the middle of a "who did what" discussion. Jack, in turn, seemed totally thrown by Stan being there. However well intentioned it may have been on the part of the hosts, I don't think it was handled well. That said, it was fascinating and illuminating.

      I believe I read somewhere that DEVIL DINOSAUR was created with the intention of turning it into a Saturday morning cartoon, so Jack was definitely aiming for a broader, children's audience.

      Now I want to reread THE ETERNALS. Great stuff, as I recall.

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    8. Lee did seem to be trying to direct it back to Kirby. Though, yes it was not handled the best. I can understand it to an extent, after all how may times do you get a chance to talk to both Lee and Kirby, but the reigns could have been held tighter.

      In the end, I just like that both men seemed to genuinely respect each other.

      I wonder if that optimism may have been what sunk the New Gods. As you pointed out, the world was going a bit nutty. Perhaps the fact that other books of teh time confronted it, conversely made such ideas seem like hiding away. Of course... Black Racer was a wounded Vietnam Vet. Perplexing.

      Jack

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    9. From what I've read, NEW GODS did a lot better than was indicated at the time. (And I'd bet that, by today's standards, it did incredibly well.) I think there were other behind the scenes reasons for the "Fourth World" cancellation.

      It's so interesting to me to see people in collaboration who have such differing views of how that collaboration played out. Stan and Jack, John and Paul. I have my theories why that is and maybe I'll write about it at some point. But, in Jack's case, I can understand that he was sitting at home, essentially creating twenty pages of story, with plot twists, new subsidiary characters, etc., adding margin notes. In his mind, that was it, the story was done and, whatever Stan's input into the plot, he was the prime creator. (I think Stan was right when he said Jack didn't look at the books after he turned them in. He probably thought Stan was transcribing his margin notes.) Stan, on the other hand, had input into the plot and then, through the dialogue, was able to add other levels and layers, emotional dimensions, that weren't there in Kirby's work. I've even heard stories of Stan have pages cut up and reordered to fit his vision. So in his mind, HE may be the primary creator.

      The truth, of course, is that they both were. Jack was a creative genius capable of birthing entire universes of new concepts and characters, Stan brought heart, soul and humor to those concepts.

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    10. That should have been "Stan HAVING pages cut up and reordered"!

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    11. That Kirby was the only one able to do justice to The Eternals is spot on. I seem to remember Neil Gaiman doing a version of The Eternals. Did not work for me. I love the characters, but they stopped being as interesting whne he stopped doing them. Kind of a shame.

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    12. Kirby was, well, Kirby—and it's hard for anyone to follow in his footsteps. Take it from a guy who did a FOREVER PEOPLE mini-series back in the 80's.

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    13. I thought the Didio/Giffen OMAC series felt about as close to Kirby as you could get these days.

      But I'm not a Kirby expert and I don't feel as passionately about it as some, so take that opinion with a grain of salt!

      --David

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    14. I've often said that Keith Giffen is the Kirby of my generation of comics creators, David...or as close to it as we're gonna get! His art on OMAC was some of the best of his career. Exceptional!

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    15. Which is why there should be a DeMatteis/Giffen FANTASTIC FOUR, done as a period piece and drawn in the style of Jack Kirby...

      BTW, Batman 3000 has now been immortalized as a skin in the latest Batman video game, ARKHAM KNIGHT. Haven't played it myself yet, but I have seen screen shots of the skin, and it looks as cool as you'd expect and hope!

      --David

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    16. I heard about the Batman 3000 skin, David. We have now entered the stream of popular culture!

      I'd write FF with Giffen any time; but I want Kevin Maguire to draw it in his own distinctive style.

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    17. The problem with the Eternals it that everyone wants to fix them when they were never broken. I feel that was especially true for Gaiman.

      The jack Kirby Museum themselves haves aid that Kirby did a decent amount of the cosmic stuff was Stan and a decent amount of the humanity was Kirby.

      Kirby and Lee are both victims of the want for a back door mythology. People want to believe it was just one. What is less remembered is that they put aside their differences and did a reunion book, almost a decade before this interview. it just isn't as interestin, which is ironic since their big contribution was to add humanity to superheroes, but humanity is what people want to strip from their histories.

      Hell, people want to call Iron Man a Kirby creation, and while he did design the costume, the issue was drawn by Don Heck, who drew way more issues of the book than Kirby ever did... even Marvel makes this mistake.

      Also, I believe Kevin Maguire already drew the F.F. once. Even payed homage to JLI #1 on the cover if I remember correctly.

      It seems Marvel has no plans for their first family any day soon, though.

      Jack

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    18. I'd be very excited about that book, too! Or Howard Porter on art. And probably a hundred other combinations I haven't mentioned...really, the possibilities are endless! And isn't that what the FF is all about?

      And I think you've been in the pop culture stream for a while now...probably white water rafting!

      --David

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    19. By designing the costume, JK was certainly a vital PART of Iron Man's creation, but he certainly wasn't the sole creator. I think sometimes people overcompensate because Jack was pushed to the fringes for so many years.

      And, yes, both contributed so much to the collaboration. There was a point, though, where Stan and Jack hardly even discussed the stories: Jack just went ahead and plotted/drew what he wanted and Stan came into it as scripture and editor. But even in that situation, there's so much room for Stan to contribute and change the entire tone and direction of a story.

      I didn't know Kevin had drawn FF. All the more reason for us to do it!

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    20. Ha! Just noticed that I scripter was auto-corrected to SCRIPTURE. I guess, as the dialogue guy, Stan did turn the stories into Marvel Scripture!

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    21. For now, the Giffen-DeMattesi-Maguire FF is just a fantasy (especially since Keith is under contract to DC!), but maybe one day...! I think it'd be great. Not that I'm exactly objective!

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    22. Yes, the costume is important, especially for Iron Man, but that is a small link... an important one...but still small.

      As for pushed to the fringes? That's complicated. Yes Jack Kirby was somewhat under-compensated for his work... but that was not rare for that generation. IN fact he got far more spotlight than almost any of the others of his generation. Hell, just a decade earlier comic creators found themselves homeless drunks due to attacks.

      The real reason lee got more attention was that he was the face of the company, and he was a company, and the fact id membership DOES have its privileges.

      The fact is that Jack Kirby was hardly the saint that he is made out to be. He did some really jackass things. Does that make him an undeserving monster? No, it made him a human who made bad decisions.

      I'm pretty sure I could Spot the Kirby plotted issues. I remember reading through the ESSENTIALS, and realizing a certain turn in story style at a certain point.


      Maguire did drew an annual, and wrote AND drew a Gen 13 Fantastic FOur team-up one shot. The cover tribute ws in the back, I had to loook it uop to remember that.


      Jack

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    23. If you haven't already, Jack, you should check out Mark Evanier's book on Kirby. It's really wonderful and insightful. Mark's working on a far more detailed Kirby bio that I'm really looking forward to.

      I'd like to see someone do a serious bio of Stan, as well. All the books I've seen (including the ones Stan has written himself) have been lacking in real depth and detail. Enjoyable, sure, but I'd love to see a serious biographer write something close to definitive.

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    24. The Kirby book is excellent. I am of the opinion that we won't get a 'real' Stan book until he passes away which, at this point, could be never. :)

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    25. Stan is incredible. May we all be so creative, energetic and charming when we're in our nineties!

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    26. Stan Lee was born the same year as my paternal grandfather and Jack Kirby as my maternal grand mother. Tom Defalco the exact same day as my mother'

      Truly only death brings about the real in depth tales of people's lives, so lets all hope that book is quite a bit in the future.

      I don't believe that I have read that Kirby book, of course remember Evanier ws close to Kirby, so who knows how much he is holding back on. Though od course as I said, I haven't read it.

      Other great books about comic creators are Gerard Jones' Men of Tomorrow, which is largely an overview of comics as a whole in the golden age, but is also very focused on Jerry Siegel. "Forms Stretched to Their Limits," about Jack Cole, which isn't super in depth but does go into some darker areas like his suicide and the disappointment in not having children. One interesting thing about the Cole book is that it splices in his work to show just what may have been going through his mind. Fire and Ice is an interesting look at Marvel's first superstar... Bill Everett, and the demons he faced along with the truly unique upbringing. Ten of course is the one about Steranko, who God only knows how true those stories are, but they are sure as Hell fun.


      Jack



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    27. I've heard so many wonderful things about MEN OF TOMORROW that I can't believe I haven't read it. It's going on the list.

      Mark Evanier strikes me as a very honest, and straightforward, guy. I don't think he'd gild the lily where Jack is concerned. His admiration of Kirby comes from knowing Jack intimately, not just as a creator, but as a man. But he's also pretty clear-eyed about things.

      The Kirby book that's out there, however wonderful (and it is! I've read it several times), is just the precursor to the in-depth bio he's writing now. He's been writing it for YEARS, so I hope we see it soon.

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    28. Never write a biography on your parents. A basic rule in journalism, because no matter what kind of relationship you had with them it will never truly be honest.

      I have not read the book, I have never met Mr. Evanier, though I have enjoyed some of his work in comics, I can't comment in any real honesty about what is or is not said.

      What ui can say is that no matter how straight forward or honest someone is in most of their life when talking about someone they cared about (or hated for that matter) they tend to gravitate to things and take the person's rationalizations more into account.

      There are things that having no personal connections to Jack Kirby, I can say what he did was kind of a dick move. If there was no moment like that in the book (or any biography for that matter) someone is probably wearing rose colored glasses.


      Men of Tomorrow is good stuff. One of the best parts was talking about Stan Lee's personal objections to accusations Wertham threw at then Atlas. Oddly, the Sielgel stuff is more interesting than the talk of DC's first publisher being a gangster. Probably because it was harder to really dig into that, probably buried or something. Not as much true humanity and all that.


      Jack

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    29. "...they tend to gravitate to things and take the person's rationalizations more into account." Isn't that called compassion? Seeing through the other person's eyes and understanding what drove them?

      Speaking of bios...have you ever read THE STAN LEE UNIVERSE? It's a collection of articles and essays, personal reminiscences, etc., spanning the entirety of Stan's career and there's some very interesting stuff in there. It was edited by Roy Thomas and my old pal Danny Fingeroth and it's well worth your time.

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    30. No, that isn't called compassion. Understanding it and seeing where they are coming from is called compassion. Gravitating towards someone's rationalizations and allowing it to color your vision of events when you claim to be stating facts is at best being biased and at worst being a propagandist, usually falling more in line in the middle as a naive sap.

      Jack Kirby's side of the story is just that, his side of the story, not THE story. When you claim to be giving an honest portrayal and you cherry-pick ans sift through facts you aren''t doing your job. Facts are facts. To describe how someone came to a point is one thing, but to not even give a hint that they may be wrong in any circumstance, to state that there was no faults or even possible gaps in logic or emotional poisoning, that is wrong.

      Despite how this may sound, I am not criticizing mark Evanier. I have no doubt that everything he wrote he did out of love, and he probably wrote what he saw as factual enough. That doesn't mean that he didn't have blinders on. There are people I should never write a biography about because of my blinders. And once again, didn't read the book, no idea what is in it. this is merely a statement of ethics, not a critique.

      Just remember this when what you claim is that something is a fact objectivity matters. If something is an opinion you have to say it. You can't give more slack to something just because it matters to you. If someone who never met Jack Kirby can say objectively that he did some jerk things, he was a tarnished angel. It doesn't mean he wasn't a good man. Rationalizations have more merit in understanding a man, not in saying what was.


      I may look into Stan Lee Universe. He has a new memoir or some such coming in November. Just a heads up


      Jack

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    31. Didn't know about Stan's new memoir. I will definitely check that out!

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    32. It's actually in Graphic Novel form, if I am remembering correctly.

      Also, as fir the Doc Strange film, and the recent announcement of who is playing the Ancient One... am I the only one who thinks that 50 isn't that ancient? Just a question from one Dr. Strange fan to another.

      Jack

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    33. I'm sure Swinton will be made ancient enough. That said, I would have rather seen an Asian actor play the part since the AO is, y'know, Asian!

      I looked up the Stan book and it was hard to tell if it was a gn or just a densely-illustrated memoir. But he's already written an autobiograpyy, so maybe it is a gn.

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    34. The Ancient One was also a dude. My guess is that if they wanted someone to look ancient they just would have hired an older actress. My guess is that they will combine The Ancient One with Clea to some degree and there will be no trip to Tibet. My guess is that is will be more like an adult Harry Potter.

      Even if they hadn't gotten rid of all the comic creators that were advising on the Marvel Cinematic Universe, after everything I've seen with Doc Strange in comics in recent history nothing really surprises me. The 21st century has not been kind to the Master of the Mysctic Arts over all. I wonder if maybe Doc is just past the point where any but us rtrue fans have any real interest in him.


      I saw the word "graphic Novel" used in description of the memoir, though I don't know how accurate it was. I can't remember where I read it, and non-comic knowing folk sometimes do through the word around a bit.

      JAck

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    35. Well, Swinton has played men before, so you never know! I don't like to judge movies before they come out, or make guesses about what the filmmakers are thinking. I do know that the director is a huge Doc Strange fan and seems to be very knowledgeable about the character's history, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for what I hope will be my favorite Marvel movie so far.

      As for the Stan book: I guess we'll know soon enough!

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    36. I think part of the fun of having something you care about adapted is guessing what the end result may be. A million and one thoughts rushed through my head when first I heard that Spider-man would have a movie. While it was nothing like what I imagined I still enjoyed the film, and imagined some cool never-weres.

      Of course that was before I stated I was done with comic movies, so... interpret that as you will. But what I predicted being wrong had nothing to do with that choice.

      Stan's book... A graphic novel would probably urge me to pick it up sooner than later. I won;'t have to wait too long to know though.


      Jack

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  2. My first real encounter with Kirby's legacy was Timm and Dini's animated universe. Darkseid and the New Gods were major players in SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES and Etrigan showed up in BATMAN: TAS.

    I believe Timm and Dini even modeled Inspector Turpin to look like Jack Kirby.

    At any rate, I vastly enjoyed their take, and I've since come to a deeper appreciation of Kirby's genius.

    --David

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    1. The fact that those characters were so important in those cartoons (as they were in JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED and BRAVE AND THE BOLD) only underscores how strong Kirby's legacy is, David. And those were the DC characters that were considered failures at the time they came out! When you consider the work at Marvel, Jack's collaboration with with Joe Simon, etc.—well, it's just mind-boggling.

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  3. Oh man, what remains to be said about Kirby that hasn't been said already?

    I'm old enough to have read those classic Kirby-Lee FFs & Thors when they first appeared, and did they ever blow my little mind. :)

    But I think it's with the New Gods that Kirby really got to express himself fully & pretty much unfettered. Re-reading those stories today, I'm struck by just how primal & powerful they remain. In the introduction to one 4th World omnibus, Grant Morrison compares Kirby to William Blake ... and while grandiose hyperbole is part of the charm of superhero comics, I can see his point. Because the more I re-read Kirby, the more I see his work as astonishingly autobiographical, albeit on a symbolic level. He's giving all he has to every page, pouring out his most intense feelings & ideas in a way any true artist does. Even the most cosmic or bizarre concept feels deeply personal, drawn from the depths of his very being.

    And I think that's why so few have been able to capture anything near the same magic when writing his creations. Walt Simonson has come the closest, it seems to me, because he shares a mythmaking sensibility with Kirby -- there are always fantastic ideas abounding, but they're embodied in something visceral, something archetypal. Kirby is never detached from or above what he's creating, assessing it as cool or clever from a slight distance -- he's right there in the blazing heart of it, like a medium serving as a conduit for other universes ... the universe of his own psyche, really. It's not that other creators don't give of themselves, or don't do their best to create something memorable & meaningful -- but Kirby IS his work, in a way very few others are, it seems to me. That's why lapses in continuity or ostensibly awkward dialogue are utterly beside the point when we're inside his vision -- this is Real Stuff, right out of the Unconscious, raw & vibrant & so very much larger than ordinary life.

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    1. Well said, Tim—and I couldn't agree more. One question that's never been adequately answered for me is: Where did all those astonishing ideas come from? How did a Jewish kid from the Lower East Side end up with a head full of cosmic visions that seem to grow deeper and more meaningful every year?

      But I guess you could ask the same question about Blake. When you're a visionary, you transcend your roots and create something brilliant and new.
      But I'd still love someone to follow the breadcrumbs through Kirby's childhood to see what could have led him down that incredible path of imagination. (I also think his WW II experiences fed directly into his 60's and 70's stories.)

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  4. Someone spilled the beans on a new Justice League cartoon at cartoon network. What do you know??? :)

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  5. Having looked at the available articles, and seeing that it's all pure speculation, I really can't comment on this, Douglas.

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  6. Fair enough. I am excited for an new series. I finished watching Justice League Unlimited last night. The one with Hawkgirl and Solomon Grundy broke my heart.

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    1. Loved working on JLU. What a terrific show: that crew really knew what they were doing. One of the best versions of the JL ever.

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    2. While I enjoyed Super Friends as a kid, I was never really sold on Justice League until the Timm/Dini cartoon. It got off to a slow start, but things really kicked into gear with the season two premiere, which featured Darkseid and the New Gods.

      Now that I think about it, Timm and Dini could make one heckuva JL3000 cartoon...

      Also, I demand JL3000 action figures!!!!

      --David

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    3. If you demand it, David, then...well, honestly, I have no control over that. But I sure would love to see it!

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  7. JL3000 action figures would be sweet! So, when is Martian Manhunter going to show up in JL3001? And, more importantly, do Oreos still exist?

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    1. Oreos will live eternally, Douglas. No plans for J'onn to appear in JL 3001, but that doesn't mean he won't. He remains one of my all-time favorite DC characters and I'd love to write him again.

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    2. I think the reincarnated J'onn should be diabetic or allergic to chocolate in his new body. That could be fun to see.

      J'onn and Mr. Miracle are the only ones from the old days missing, they need to come back, otherwise it will feel so... unclean. Or I'll just think they should be there, I don't know.


      Jack

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    3. Did you ever read the unproduced JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED outline I posted here a few years back, Jack? It dealt with J'onn's Oreo addiction and its effects on Martian physiology. It was a lot of fun and, if you didn't read it, I think you'd enjoy it.

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  8. Because we have veered off into Justice League cartoon territory, I have a question; Who had a thing for Hawkgirl in the creation of these series? She was in a lot of those episodes and became a focus for a time.

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    1. I honestly don't know, Douglas. I assume someone at the top of the JL food chain is a Hawkgirl fan.

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    2. If I remember correctly, in JLU she got a bit of the focus because they didn't expect to get a season after the Cadmus one, and they wanted to bring her together with all of the rest in a final battle for the show. That meant cleaning up a lot and redeeming her in the Justice League's eyes. Then of course there is the fact that every writer likes writing a good redemptiontale, which probavbly weighed in a little.

      In the normal Justice League one it was to build up for the betrayal so you could feel something when it happened.

      Though, I may be mistaken, it has been a while since a watched those DVDs let alone the special features.

      Then of course, she was the least iconic of the 7 on the show, so DC probably gave more room to play.

      Jack

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