1) The name of the character isn't Doctor Who, it's the Doctor.
2)If we are going to apply an actor's roles into what they say, keep in mind that he more recently played a a super villain. What's more a super villain who has the ability to make people believe thing (note to self:fight obvious joke)
Seriously though:
I don't think we need the Batcomputer to deduce what prompted this. I won't invite any possible debate by saying what it is, maybe you heard squirrels are officially classified as out gods or the international space-station has developed a super laser and are pulling some kind of James Bondian scheme. Who knows.
I will say, that while I think this part of the view overlooks or denies certain complexities to these issues (either out of fear of giving too much legitimacy or willful ignorance, I can't say)and have not looked in the most necessary place for allies... I am on that side. I just wish more than half were doing it better.
It was a beautiful thing today I will say. I WON'T say what, but I Lets just say a place with crowds suddenly got bigger and less annoying ones.
Also, while I think that for a lot of people "appealing to their better angels" as Lincoln put it, is a waste of time and energy. Usually they are the ones with the most need of it.
I will say that I believe that when people stare annihilation in the face, those who can accept things are few and far between.
I think the real hope belongs in a fact-
World War II was the man made event that had the single greatest loss of life in human history.
In the aftermath barriers were put in place to prevent it from ever happening again.
As a result the world entered into the greatest period of peace and prosperity that the world has ever known. One that...or all of our ups and downs... we are still in to this day (for now at least).
Social views changes and hyper evolved, No major nation has technically gone to war since the 1940s (it is true, those are technically police actions give the lack of declaration).
The difference is that because of those changes, we have a lot more to lose, which will scare people much more than when almost every industrialized nation was suffering an economic collapse.
Okay, I'm sick of this game... i"m just going to call a duck a duck and say what we are talking about. No one is fooled. It is the squirrel one. I will NEVER pray to them.
I spent a lot of time around my grandparents as a kid. LIke most people born in the 70s and 80s, that meant they were of WWII vet and great Depression weathering age.
I have often wondered, are we still those people? There is a reason why it is called the greatest generation.
I have had doubts. I still don't know if we could come together and deal like in the face of such impossible odds. I do know that we still hate injustice and are willing to push back with the same fervor.
In the midst f fake outrage, the rallying call for true for true problems still sounds the loudest.
I have heard my entire life that America is unique, special, better. We have had very little to test that theory since the greatest generation pushed civil rights.
Now we know. Americans are special. We don't take this shit laying down.
Steve Rogers be Proud. Hell, let's make that a new thing. Every time people push back against injustice let's say, "Steve-Rogers-Be-Proud."
I don't feel it's hyperbole to say that at this particular time, it's nothing less than civilization standing up to barbarism. It's just disgusting & shameful that our barbarians are currently inside the gates, trying to keep everyone else out.
But I refuse to accept & submit to fear & hatred & ignorance.
Also... back to the clone saga. I know it was in a different section on the site, but any way, back to the clone saga.
I think the idea of making Ben the true SPider-man is what sunk the story.
As I understand it, the idea was influenced by Knightfall and Death of Superman (which in turn took a page from Gruenwald's John Walker saga). All those stories were bigger success and also had something else in common. Those three stories always intended to simply prove why those characters are unreplaceable.
If the goal that was always being moved towards was a justification and praise of the original character, it would be a completely different animal.
Also. even though I personally love the Clone Saga and Ben, it does look like a Greek myth, as far as the fall of the story. It is a bit arrogant to think you can replace a classic character. Damn Zeus, always getting in the way of comic writers.
Well, it all depends on how you look at it, because, really, we weren't replacing anything. Ben WAS Peter Parker. The one people read about for the first ten (or was it more?) years of Spider-Man comics. You could say that having Ben become the one, true Spidey was getting back to the roots of the character.
scientifically it was the real Peter Parker, but philosophically he was not. Ben hadn't been Peter in 5 years (20 our time). He was not Peter PArker anymore. HE was someone else entirely.
More importantly, he was not the person that readers had developed their relationship with.
There is something funny about the fact that as Marvel replaces most of their characters, they celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Clone SAGA.
The back to basics approach very rarely works as it is. Fans like continuity, it is part of the fun. I never understand why so many EICs don't get that. DC just learned that teh hard way.
It's even worse for Marvel. IN 1970 when Stan Lee left most of the Marvel books, every character was in a very different place than they had been at their introduction (or in the case of NAmor and Captain America re-introduction). IN 1991 they were in a different place than they had been when Lee left.
Marvel was built on forward momentum (or at least a perceived one) and most importantly, caring about the characters.
I have heard that the idea of Ben was a dream for writers, since it was an open slate. Placing their dreams of a writer over what teh fans would want.
Now, I am not going to claim this is accurate, I was not in the room during any of those meetings..except that one time I was the bear that burst in and stole all the bagels... so this is all based of a hypothetical situation and no accusation. If that was the case however, it is dangerous. Not NECESSARILY bad, just dangerous
I honestly think, that if they had Ben failing to be Peter. Not being able to form relationships, feeling lost with the relationship with other heroes that moved on without him, and overwhelmed by the new nature of villains, and Pete's old crowd not liking who he became, all of which clashes with an idyllic view he had formed about the good old days.
Meanwhile Peter, who was not declared a clone here, still retires, because of the child. He tries to live the idyllic life, and to a certain extent does. White picket fences, whole nine.
But he feels a need to fight the villains. He simply has other responsibilities. It is simply a compulsion he has trouble overcoming. Until he does. This is the return of Norman, you see teh guilt became paranoia of nothing, and when it was necessary it was gone. The baby dies, Ben hands over the reigns of Spider-Man again. He then goes off and returns to his Spider-Kerouac ways.
That I think could have made it considered a classic to this day.
Now, before you curse me out, I liked the Clone Saga as it was. I wouldn't change a thing... maybe keep Ben alive.
I am posturing on an old comic story 20 years after it ended. I admit to having no knowledge of what happened behind the scenes.
This is merely what may have been, not what should have been or should have been.
I am happy with how things turned out, and think the two years after the Clone saga, in all four books, were some of the most underrated comics in the characters history. All Four creators were firing on all cylinders for a while.
So, don't take any of this as any type of insult. That Demateis-Defalco-Dezaggo-MAckie era was great, and it went too fast.
Placing our dreams over that of the fans? Nope. We loved Ben because he was a great character. Period. And, as a writer, the characters lead you, the stories lead you. And Ben inspired us, fired us up, and led us on. And, no, I'm not insulted, just clarifying.
I think I've said this before but—re: your story idea—in a Ben/Spider-Man era, I think Peter would have resurfaced periodically for big storylines and, knowing the way comics work, he would have eventually had his own book and the world would have two Spider-Men (Spider-Mans?!). Kind of like the way it is now with Peter and "Ultimate" Spidey.
Why wouldn't they just keep calling Ben Scarlet Spider? It is really rare that you can have a long term replacement for an iconic character. I think the only reason it worked in the 50s was because it was when most fans still aged out.
Speaking of which, I would love a 1950s set Green Lantern comic.
And you are clearly insulted , just like a pretzel. Wait.. that's just salted. Guess you just have a weird home life. That's none of my business if you think that will somehow preserve your life force fro eons.
1) The name of the character isn't Doctor Who, it's the Doctor.
ReplyDelete2)If we are going to apply an actor's roles into what they say, keep in mind that he more recently played a a super villain. What's more a super villain who has the ability to make people believe thing (note to self:fight obvious joke)
Seriously though:
I don't think we need the Batcomputer to deduce what prompted this. I won't invite any possible debate by saying what it is, maybe you heard squirrels are officially classified as out gods or the international space-station has developed a super laser and are pulling some kind of James Bondian scheme. Who knows.
I will say, that while I think this part of the view overlooks or denies certain complexities to these issues (either out of fear of giving too much legitimacy or willful ignorance, I can't say)and have not looked in the most necessary place for allies... I am on that side. I just wish more than half were doing it better.
It was a beautiful thing today I will say. I WON'T say what, but I Lets just say a place with crowds suddenly got bigger and less annoying ones.
Also, while I think that for a lot of people "appealing to their better angels" as Lincoln put it, is a waste of time and energy. Usually they are the ones with the most need of it.
I will say that I believe that when people stare annihilation in the face, those who can accept things are few and far between.
I think the real hope belongs in a fact-
World War II was the man made event that had the single greatest loss of life in human history.
In the aftermath barriers were put in place to prevent it from ever happening again.
As a result the world entered into the greatest period of peace and prosperity that the world has ever known. One that...or all of our ups and downs... we are still in to this day (for now at least).
Social views changes and hyper evolved, No major nation has technically gone to war since the 1940s (it is true, those are technically police actions give the lack of declaration).
The difference is that because of those changes, we have a lot more to lose, which will scare people much more than when almost every industrialized nation was suffering an economic collapse.
Okay, I'm sick of this game... i"m just going to call a duck a duck and say what we are talking about. No one is fooled. It is the squirrel one. I will NEVER pray to them.
Jack
I know he's The Doctor, Jack, but he's still popularly referred to as Doctor Who.
DeleteAnd yes, it's the squirrels. Those damn squirrels!
One more thing...
DeleteI spent a lot of time around my grandparents as a kid. LIke most people born in the 70s and 80s, that meant they were of WWII vet and great Depression weathering age.
I have often wondered, are we still those people? There is a reason why it is called the greatest generation.
I have had doubts. I still don't know if we could come together and deal like in the face of such impossible odds. I do know that we still hate injustice and are willing to push back with the same fervor.
In the midst f fake outrage, the rallying call for true for true problems still sounds the loudest.
I have heard my entire life that America is unique, special, better. We have had very little to test that theory since the greatest generation pushed civil rights.
Now we know. Americans are special. We don't take this shit laying down.
Steve Rogers be Proud. Hell, let's make that a new thing. Every time people push back against injustice let's say, "Steve-Rogers-Be-Proud."
Jack
I don't feel it's hyperbole to say that at this particular time, it's nothing less than civilization standing up to barbarism. It's just disgusting & shameful that our barbarians are currently inside the gates, trying to keep everyone else out.
ReplyDeleteBut I refuse to accept & submit to fear & hatred & ignorance.
All I can say to that, Tim, is: AMEN.
DeleteAs I implied, as bad as this seems, it is very encouraging how little time it seems to take to start the push back.
DeleteYou can't have heroes without a villain.
Jack
For me personally, I don't want to focus on the "villain" of the piece so much as the compassion and light that can transform the story.
DeleteAnd, yes, the pushback has been instantaneous. Very heartening.
Good and bad are polar opposites more than anyone admits.
DeleteGood can not exist in a vacuum. It takes some kind of strife whether it is a person or natural.
Bad on the other hand can and does exist in peace.
Point is... focus on what you want, but take what you can get.
Also... back to the clone saga. I know it was in a different section on the site, but any way, back to the clone saga.
ReplyDeleteI think the idea of making Ben the true SPider-man is what sunk the story.
As I understand it, the idea was influenced by Knightfall and Death of Superman (which in turn took a page from Gruenwald's John Walker saga). All those stories were bigger success and also had something else in common. Those three stories always intended to simply prove why those characters are unreplaceable.
If the goal that was always being moved towards was a justification and praise of the original character, it would be a completely different animal.
Also. even though I personally love the Clone Saga and Ben, it does look like a Greek myth, as far as the fall of the story. It is a bit arrogant to think you can replace a classic character. Damn Zeus, always getting in the way of comic writers.
Jack
Well, it all depends on how you look at it, because, really, we weren't replacing anything. Ben WAS Peter Parker. The one people read about for the first ten (or was it more?) years of Spider-Man comics. You could say that having Ben become the one, true Spidey was getting back to the roots of the character.
Deletescientifically it was the real Peter Parker, but philosophically he was not. Ben hadn't been Peter in 5 years (20 our time). He was not Peter PArker anymore. HE was someone else entirely.
DeleteMore importantly, he was not the person that readers had developed their relationship with.
There is something funny about the fact that as Marvel replaces most of their characters, they celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Clone SAGA.
The back to basics approach very rarely works as it is. Fans like continuity, it is part of the fun. I never understand why so many EICs don't get that. DC just learned that teh hard way.
It's even worse for Marvel. IN 1970 when Stan Lee left most of the Marvel books, every character was in a very different place than they had been at their introduction (or in the case of NAmor and Captain America re-introduction). IN 1991 they were in a different place than they had been when Lee left.
Marvel was built on forward momentum (or at least a perceived one) and most importantly, caring about the characters.
I have heard that the idea of Ben was a dream for writers, since it was an open slate. Placing their dreams of a writer over what teh fans would want.
Now, I am not going to claim this is accurate, I was not in the room during any of those meetings..except that one time I was the bear that burst in and stole all the bagels... so this is all based of a hypothetical situation and no accusation. If that was the case however, it is dangerous. Not NECESSARILY bad, just dangerous
I honestly think, that if they had Ben failing to be Peter. Not being able to form relationships, feeling lost with the relationship with other heroes that moved on without him, and overwhelmed by the new nature of villains, and Pete's old crowd not liking who he became, all of which clashes with an idyllic view he had formed about the good old days.
Meanwhile Peter, who was not declared a clone here, still retires, because of the child. He tries to live the idyllic life, and to a certain extent does. White picket fences, whole nine.
But he feels a need to fight the villains. He simply has other responsibilities. It is simply a compulsion he has trouble overcoming. Until he does. This is the return of Norman, you see teh guilt became paranoia of nothing, and when it was necessary it was gone. The baby dies, Ben hands over the reigns of Spider-Man again. He then goes off and returns to his Spider-Kerouac ways.
That I think could have made it considered a classic to this day.
Now, before you curse me out, I liked the Clone Saga as it was. I wouldn't change a thing... maybe keep Ben alive.
I am posturing on an old comic story 20 years after it ended. I admit to having no knowledge of what happened behind the scenes.
This is merely what may have been, not what should have been or should have been.
I am happy with how things turned out, and think the two years after the Clone saga, in all four books, were some of the most underrated comics in the characters history. All Four creators were firing on all cylinders for a while.
So, don't take any of this as any type of insult. That Demateis-Defalco-Dezaggo-MAckie era was great, and it went too fast.
Jack
Placing our dreams over that of the fans? Nope. We loved Ben because he was a great character. Period. And, as a writer, the characters lead you, the stories lead you. And Ben inspired us, fired us up, and led us on. And, no, I'm not insulted, just clarifying.
DeleteI think I've said this before but—re: your story idea—in a Ben/Spider-Man era, I think Peter would have resurfaced periodically for big storylines and, knowing the way comics work, he would have eventually had his own book and the world would have two Spider-Men (Spider-Mans?!). Kind of like the way it is now with Peter and "Ultimate" Spidey.
Why wouldn't they just keep calling Ben Scarlet Spider? It is really rare that you can have a long term replacement for an iconic character. I think the only reason it worked in the 50s was because it was when most fans still aged out.
DeleteSpeaking of which, I would love a 1950s set Green Lantern comic.
And you are clearly insulted , just like a pretzel. Wait.. that's just salted. Guess you just have a weird home life. That's none of my business if you think that will somehow preserve your life force fro eons.
Jack
Pretzels are the key to immortality. But only the ones you buy from vendors on the streets of Manhattan.
DeleteBy the way, how much of this did you know about yourself?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6tEkCNGS4g
Yeah, I saw that. That info came straight from my introduction to the most recent edition of KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT.
Delete