Saturday, May 25, 2013

CIMMERIAN SHAMANS

Came across this essay I wrote in 2008 for one of the Dark Horse Conan collections and thought I'd share it with you.  Enjoy!


***

One afternoon in the summer of 1970, I was sitting out in front of my apartment building, flipping through one of the many Marvel Comics I regularly devoured, when I saw an ad for a new title:  The image featured a half-naked guy with a sword, rock star hair and a somewhat goofy helmet.  I’d never heard of this Conan, nor had I heard of his creator, Robert E. Howard—although the fact that he was mentioned in the ad at all led me to believe I should have heard of him.  My ignorance prevented me from being impressed; but what did impress me was the fact that this new comic book didn’t look remotely like a super hero title.  In the preceding decade, Marvel had made its name revolutionizing and re-energizing the super hero.  No one bought Stan Lee’s line of books for Patsy Walker (well, maybe your kid sister did)  or Two-Gun Kid (okay, I occasionally read the Westerns, but only when I was desperate for a Marvel fix), you bought it for Fantastic Four and Spider-Man.   But this Conan character wasn’t wearing a mask or a cape and that intrigued me.  

(Although I didn’t realize it consciously at the time, I think super hero fatigue was settling over me.  In the decade that followed, many, if not most, of my favorite series didn’t star super-types at all.  Oh, they nodded in the genre’s direction—they had to—but books like Swamp Thing, Man-Thing, Tomb of Dracula and Master of Kung Fu broke new ground.  Even Jack Kirby’s brilliant New Gods material, which, on the surface, looked like super hero fare, was far too specific to the unique cosmic universe inside its creator’s head to be lumped in with Superman and his spawn.  But all those titles were yet to appear:  at the time, Conan seemed utterly unique to my spandex-saturated eyeballs.)

In the weeks between that first ad and the appearance of Conan the Barbarian #1, I decided to learn more about this Robert E. Howard guy and his helmet-headed creation (after all, if he was good enough for Stan Lee and Roy Thomas, he was good enough for me).  This required a mythical journey of my own—to a mysterious place called My Friend’s Book Store.  Located on Flatbush Avenue, at the end of a long, dark, and disturbingly spooky, alley that deposited me just a few doors away, My Friend’s Book Store was the kind of place a Stygian wizard might have called home:  cramped, moldy, thick with dust.  Towers of books—many, if not most, of them science-fiction and fantasy—seemed to rise skyward into faraway dimensions, parallel universes.  MFBS was also the only place I’d ever been in my entire life where you could actually see, and occasionally be allowed to touch, precious back issues of comic books.  (A six year old Fantastic Four issue seemed so ancient, and so priceless, to me that it might might as well have come from King Tut’s tomb.)

The cigar-smoking owner pointed me toward the Lancer paperback editions of the Conan stories and it didn’t take long for me to fall completely under REH’s spell.  It’s not hard to see how a sword-wielding, head-lopping barbarian with a taste for blood and willing women would appeal to an angry, frustrated, hormonally-imbalanced sixteen year old; but, for me, that was only a small part of Conan’s appeal.  I enjoyed violent catharsis as much as the next guy, but this was the sixties (believe me, the date might have been l970 but it was still very much the sixties):  I’d been raised on “All You Need Is Love” and “Give Peace A Chance.”  I’d lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, the assassinations of Martin Luther King and the Kennedy brothers—watched the horrific images of the Viet Nam War on the news almost every night—and realized, early on, that violence, while a great outlet for fantasy, was an extraordinarily bad choice for reality.  

No, there was something else at work in Howard’s writing:  his power as a literary shaman.  Someone who could rip away veils of time and place, transporting the reader to antediluvian kingdoms—dangerous, mysterious, seductive, frightening—that seemed totally alien yet unnervingly familiar.  Losing myself in a Howard story was like losing myself in a past incarnation.  I felt as if I’d walked those streets before, seen those faces, encountered those awe-inspiring cosmic mysteries.  Howard’s best work was wonderfully unsettling because it brought our assumptions about reality itself into question.   

Hooked on Conan’s world, I eagerly anticipated the character’s debut in comic book form.  

I wasn’t remotely disappointed.  

I was already a huge fan of Roy Thomas’s work—he’d brought new levels of depth and poetry to the universe that Lee, Kirby and Steve Ditko created—but his work on Conan was something new.  Free of the Stan Lee Template, inspired by Howard’s evocative prose, Roy brought his own distinct voice to these stories:  His writing was muscular, lyrical and wonderfully atmospheric.  Reading that first issue of Conan the Barbarian was unlike any comic book reading experience I’d ever had.

Thomas couldn’t have done it without the brilliant Barry Smith, who, more than any other Conan artist, had an intuitive, almost supernatural, ability to give visual life to the Hyborian Age.  I bow to none in my admiration for the artists who followed Smith on Marvel’s Conan, especially John Buscema—whose Silver Surfer run I cherish—and Gil Kane—one of the brightest stars in my Comic Gods Firmament; in fact you could argue, convincingly, that their Conan—the character of Conan—was far more definitive.  But the universe Conan inhabited?  It belonged to Smith—who achieved something no other Conan artist ever has:  He managed to simultaneously make the lands the Cimmerian journeyed through seem convincingly real and utterly unreal—as if we were walking through a haze of our own long-buried memories.  As if one of the many wizards Conan encountered had exposed us to mystic vapors that unlocked heretofore unknown doors in our own psyches.  Looking back, Smith’s early work may seem crude when compared to later efforts like “The Frost Giant’s Daughter,” “Song of Red Sonja” and “Red Nails.”  But his abilities as a visual shaman were there from the very first issue.

The Thomas-Smith Conan the Barbarian was a mold-breaker:  an important turning point in modern American comics.  Considering the series’ lengthy run, Barry Smith didn’t really last all that long on the title; but the fact that I’m writing, so rapturously, about his work more than forty years later is proof of its enduring value.  After Smith’s departure, Roy Thomas soldiered on, accompanied for most of the journey by the aforementioned John Buscema:  keeping the monthly Conan comic book, and its various spin-offs, consistently smart, exciting, literate, entertaining—and true to the Howard spirit.  That Thomas did it, on a variety of titles, for a full decade is a striking achievement.

But the spells that Roy and Barry wove together were, for me, the most enchanting of all.

© copyright 2013 J.M. DeMatteis

43 comments:

  1. Fascinating. But have already posted this. In don't know it seems familiar but I enjoyed reading it again.

    I am not the biggest Conan fan, I mean I dig him well enough,. but I have to be in the right mood. I think it might bb because I first read Conan aftr I turned 18, and while I never saw superheroes as teenage power fantasties, I do sort of see it in Conan

    It's interesting you mention how he isn't a superhero. After all are his exploits any less in the mold than the Fantastic Four? Certainly Dr. Strange is no more like a superhero than eye. In fact he is listed on international superheroes.ca(?) as a pulp precursor along the lines of the Phantom, Doc Savage and the Shadow. Maybe in reality Superhero isn't a dirty word, but rather a broad view, with many twists and turns that can be taken. After all were a good many Thor stories that different from the New Gods. just food for thought.

    a bit more mind noshing:

    MOvies and animation are to comic books what movies are to Science Fiction, yeah there is some quality stuff, but the real good stuff is on a page.

    Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
    Jack

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    1. I ran this on the old Amazon blog, Jack, but never on this one.

      I see your point about super-hero being a broader term than we give it credit for. That said, Conan is a hero...and, in many ways, super. But he's not a guy in a costume, with a secret identity, fighting other guys in costumes. In the broader definition, most heroic fantasy could be called super-hero fantasy, but I prefer to keep it separate. And, let me tell you, in 1970, the CONAN comic had precious little in common with the Marvels that had come before. It was literally another world.

      I'll have to ponder your movie/animation thought!

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    2. That is sort of my point. Dr. Strange doesn't have a secret identity, nor does he dress in a costume, nor does he have a rogues gallery in colorful costume. The Shadow and Doc Savage, the precursors to superheroes also had none of those, but are often called superheroes.

      And remember the New Gods did have secret identities, or at least one. Under Jack Kirby's pen no less, Orion took the earth guise O'Ryan. And even by the end of Lee and Kirby's run Thor had fewer and fewer supervillains, it was far more similar to the New Gods than Superman.

      Is Doctor Doom that different from Fu MAnchu? or any James Bond Villain? Costumes are the only thing you mentioned that the FF have. ANd not even there viilais have them, they just dress odd... but it is there every day clothes. What guys in costumes did the silver surfer fight? What costume did he have? How could you hide a big Silver guy? How is he any more superhero that Conan... or Gandalf?

      Because Conan and Gandalf only have the REAL difference of being in a far off time from when they were written, and don't adapt to the time they are written in.

      The fact is superheroes do not exist. There is no real difference between them and any other fictional larger than life heroes. Only superficial concepts exist. Things like secret identities are merely from the American psyche. We enjoy it because it speaks to us as a society (I can go into that later if you want). Returning villains are not unique to superheroes, and costumes are half commercial, but really date back to a symbol of the character, a quick point of reference, no different than Perseus on Pegasus, King Arthur with Excalibur, or Paul Bunyon's stature, it is merely the 20th century ad agency take on it.

      There is no difference, not really, it just happens to be serialized, in fact 60's Marvel only has 2 characters that REALLY fit everything that you described. Daredevil and Spider-man... maybe Iron Man. But Captain America was far more of a flamboyant Spy/war comic.

      To me the 70's were just realizing that the walls not only could be pushed because of Stan and Jack, but they really were not even there. The experimentation was key to the decade. Man-Thing was even called a superhero in a few ads, and in the letters page.

      The best way I can express this is with one example: Jim Starlin's run (and those that followed) on Captain Marvel... Superhero or no? Hard huh.

      Now ponder that movie animation thing and get back to me. But what I meant is that because they need to appeal top a larger audience they can;'t really get into things, but books, short stories, and comics are more for tried and true fans, they can take bigger risks. which is why I hate talking about comic book Movies "Hey DArk Knight was great! Best Batman story ever!" yeah I did like Dark KNight, but I can think of a dozen better comic stories just off the top of my head. Or, "Avatar was a masterpeice, Sci Fi at it's best!" Go pick up a PKD book or a Bradbury collection and tell me which ones REALLY blew your mind.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    3. Yep, us old timers from the Amazon days, well we just have a bit of a wealth these young whipper snappers don't. sad really. Yes, you best help get them on par with us.

      Also, if you could right a mini series about any mainstream supporting character you have written (No powers or superheroy stuff) who would it be? Bernie Rosenthal? Aunt May? that little girl from you Doc Strange Run?

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    4. Here's the real question, Jack: When are you going to start your own blog so you can explore these fascinating ideas in detail and on a regular basis? I'd certainly read it!

      I agree with you that many "superhero" comics step outside the mold: THOR is a great example. As it evolved in the 60's, it became its own unique mash-up of cosmic adventures and mythological fantasy and, for the most part, it had nothing to do with superhero stories as we understood them. And that was just the first step to NEW GODS, which broke more barriers than you could count. At the same time, your other point about most heroes in fantasy actually being superheroes is also interesting. Maybe it's best to just call ALL these genres heroic fantasy.

      That said, the basic tropes of guys in tights with masks and secret identities fighting other guys in tights with masks and secret identities is still unique to superhero comics.

      As for your other topic: I agree and disagree. For one thing, I think the "mass appeal" versions of these characters—especially what we've seen in TV animation the past 20 years or so—sometimes transcends the comics. Some of the DCU animated interpretations of the characters are better, and far more accessible, than the stories in the comics. That said, I generally agree...especially where novels are concerned. I don't care how many PKD or Bradbury movies they make, nothing can capture the voice, the feel, the worlds these men created on the page.

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    5. You sort of hit on the point I was making about mass media. Novels, short stories, and comic have more hardcore fans. with that they can take more risks. mix and match, and not condense it so mush to bring something out like it has to happen with larger appeal. You can have more faith that the audience will get it.

      As far as Bradbury and PKD voices translated goes: Yeah, But a Scanner Darkly came close.

      Now onto the main event.

      No people in tight fighting each other? What about Peter Pan, or Shakespeare. AS for masks and secret IDs, the Scarlet Pimpernel, wore a mask. Is the Lone Ranger a Superhero? Grey area, but most would say no. Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty squaring off is not that dissimilar to Batman taking on Ra's Al Ghul, ore Daredevil and Kingpin or... way to many to count. Secret Ids date back at least to the 19th century in America. And villains who operate in secret and/or wear masks is even older.

      Conan, seems to have more in common with Superheroes than many others. One might look at him a superficially say that he is like Bilbo and company, or Sigfried, or Hercules, or Perseus. However, if you look at him as a character, which is best, and get rid of everything else he is more like Superman, or Batman, or Wolverine, and certainly Doc Savage, the Phantom, and the Shadow. Why because of the culture that spawned them. That is what really defines a character. The character himself is more similar to the mask set than than other countries fantasy, and that is doubly true for Man-thing, Swamp Thing, Shang Chi, and especially the New Gods.

      A hero is a hero, a villain is a villain, and a quest is a quest. Period. The characters merely take the form of what the birthing culture's views and needs are. These are just characters, and plot devices (secret identities and Superpowers included)nothing more. You can do what ever you want with them, after all do you care about Spider-man or Peter Parker? Superhero? What is that really? Is Doctor Who one? Sherlock Holmes? Is Dracula a Supervillain? He dresses flamboyantly, and has powers, and even had a secret identity of sorts in the book?

      Classifications can be good. They can also be meaningless. I think the term Superhero is an arbitrary one. There is a website I once stumble upon looking for info on an indie book here it is:

      http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/

      look here specicially:

      http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/u/usindep.htm

      and

      http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/u/uk.htm

      look beyond the comic answers to other media, and see who is mentioned, yes Conan is under puklp, but that isn't the point. look how wide the variety of Superhero is.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

      P.S. I had this written out much better, but my computer lost it since it wan't post ready yet. minor, but annoying.

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    6. This is one of those topics that can be approached a number of ways, Jack, depending on the perspective you bring to it (kind of like life), but I've loved everything you've had to say and encourage you to take it and develop it into a full essay. Your perspective is fresh and interesting and I'd love to see you developing this into something bigger.

      At the very least, start that blog!

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    7. Agreed. It is all about perspective.

      As for that blog... well I'm a bit more concerned with writing that pays. Both fiction as well as reporting. For an example, take a look at this overview of the Motor City Comic Con: http://blog.thedetroithub.com/2013/05/24/stan-lee-numerous-celebrities-bring-thousands-of-fans-to-motor-city-comic-con/ Or don't, but don't let the pen name fool you.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    8. Nice piece, Jack! But I still want you to do that blog!

      Maybe you and David could do one together: point/counterpoint. Now THAT would be fascinating!

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    9. Thanks for the kind words about the article. There was talk of a possible interview with Stan, but he actually didn't give any out to even give any out to the big media outlets, still, how cool would that have been? Would have been nice. Hopefully, if the fiction thing doesn't pan out I can always try for journalism. Incidentally, what did you think of my photo caption "This Stan, This Mirror?" I had to get my nerd jollies somewhere.

      The problem with the point counterpoint thing is, as he and I have discussed here, is that we agree too much, like 9/10 times. It would be dull. We would have to make up views to draw a crowd, and the next thing you know he is saing "Mussolini had some good ideas," and I'm saying "Look, Stalin DID keep order." and the masses, not getting the joke, cause communism and fascism to rise all over again, except here! Captain America would be outlawed for conflicting with both views, ever Golden age character is wiped from memory for opposing the Axis, Stan Lee's entire work of the 60's is burned for challenging the Soviets! The country is divided into two faction, EXtreme right wing and Extreme Left wing, and not like now with the playful faux news channel anger, real horrors, collectives, rights stripped, an over arching ruling class... no one in each one mad up of government thugs, and the other composed of the wealthy and elite! My god America lays in ashes, all because you needed a blog! Every paranoid polit6ical talking heads far fetched fantasies come true! How can you live with yourself after killing all that was good about America?

      Besides it would cut down on the interesting conversations on this site.

      Of course the talk of Heroes archetypes and the problems with media jumping reminds me, I think it is a mistake for the comic book industry to put so much effort in the masses. Sure the public at large should be aware and exposed, but the real potential for returning clients is to tap into regular fans of Sci-Fi, fantasy, crime, and other genres. I think those are the best shot for new fans.

      One last point, on topic actually. when The Twilight Zone was brought back in the early 2000's there was an episode called "Azroth the Avenger is a friend of mine." it involved a Conan like character, and like most of the series, was actually pretty good and captured the tone of the Zone well. Also, it captured the spirit of Conan and comic books themselves well... or at least that is how it seemed to a casual Conan reader.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    10. I only sampled the 2000s TZ a few times, Jack, and found it wanting. Maybe I'll revisit...

      You can do a blog with David that doesn't have to rely on disagreements. Just a sharing of ideas and opinions. I'd read it every week!

      As much as your idea of stepping away from the general public is an interesting one, no publishing company is going to stop aiming for the largest possible audience. The goal, in the end, is to make money. And they want to make as much money as is humanly possible!

      Delete
    11. I wasn't suggesting the company completely abandon going for the general public, but rather that it also puts some effort into smaller groups that are more likely to become full time readers. Less abandoning, and more diversifying the areas they try to get new readers.

      As far as the 2000s TZ goes, I actually felt the same way when it came out. I enjoyed it, but found it, well... lacking as you said. It wasn't until a few years later, when I caught the reruns on some Cable channel, that I appreciated it. While it is not as good as the original, (what is?) I did think that it was good anthology show. Then I came to appreciate it as a part of TZ lore. Yes the quality lacked,but only in comparison to the original, but I thought it captured the spirit better than the 80's version. Both of which I think really lacked by being called "The Twilight Zone." It's too much pressure.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    12. Having written for the 80's TZ, I think one of the problems was that it was called TWILIGHT ZONE at all. There were some spectacular episodes of the 80's ZONE but, as you said, they suffered because they were being compared to the original. Taken on their own, many of them were superb.

      In case you've never seen it, here's my favorite 80's ZONE episode: Alan Brennert's beautiful tale, "Her Pilgrim Soul"—directed by Wes Craven:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8codF61ga6w

      I'll poke around on YouTube and see what I can find of the 2000's ZONE. Apparently there's yet another version in the works right now.

      As for your idea of focusing on smaller groups: now that you've clarified, I heartily agree!

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    13. One of the 80's ones I remember really liking was Nightcrawlers, about a Vietnam Vet with the power to manifest his flashbacks. It was really good, it was so close to a classic Zone, but not quite, ya know.

      Another about a draft dodger who keeps seeing a vet show up. Very interesting. But while the idea seems very Serling, the execution was good, but not Rod.

      Her Pilgrim Soul is the perfect example though. It is great, but the mood does not seem very Twilight Zone.

      As for the 2000s, I know Netflix has the DVDs available, but I don't think they stream it. I know youtube has full episodes in some form though, I've seen them. Azoth may be my favorite of them, but there are quite a few good ones. I think fresh eyes are what is really needed. Like I said, it made me be able to appreciate them just for the quality of the story, and then actually see some good TZ like ideas, though not necessarily a great example of TZ in itself, I think it had potential and its fair share of good stories.

      The 80's zone for some reason seemed like more of a gap between Outer limits and the 90's Outer limits. Don't know why.

      Do I smell a sequel to "Citizen of the Zone" comparing and contrasting the two follow up series?



      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    14. "Nightcrawlers" was a very powerful episode, as was the Cliff DeYoung episode, "The Road Less Traveled." Lots of great 80's ZONES. Another of my favorites was called "Worldplay": a story about language. Wonderful episode.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Ucw9cPH-8

      And let's not forget that, before GAME OF THRONES, George R.R. Martin was an 80's TZ staff writer!

      Let me watch some of the 2000's episodes and then I'll see if I'm moved to write about 'em.

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    15. I didn't know that about George. But as I have not read or watched Game of Thrones, that isn't really surprising. Wasn't J. Michael Straczynski on staff there too?

      I would just say start at the beginning for the 2000s series.

      SPeaking of Netflix, ant chance you've seen Batman: MAsk of the Phantasm yet? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Come down Dematteis, I know you're busy I just remember you saying it was going in the queue WAAAAAAAAy back when you discussed animated movies here. yeah, know your busy... it was just a thought.


      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    16. JMS was a story editor on the syndicated ZONE that followed the 80's ZONE. They were then packaged and syndicated together, but they were originally separate entities. (Trivia: I sold my first live-action script to the 80's TWILIGHT ZONE and my first animation script to JMS when he was story editor on THE REAL GHOSTBUSTERS, right around the same time.)

      MASK OF THE PHANTASM? I've watched it dozens of times...hundreds...thous --

      Okay, I still haven't seen it.

      Delete
  2. Conan sort of reminds me of the sad way that Robert E. Howard died, and that reminds me of a more serious question I have wondered about for a while.

    Why is it that in the media, all media suicide is handled so clumsily?

    Don't get me wrong I am absolutely NOT advocating it, far from it. I want to stress that. But it seems like either the subject is treated as just sort of showing the aftermath, or more often than I can count saying it is an act of cowardice.

    Many suicides are not rash decisions, but rather the end product of a long time of mental anguish, most often clinical Depression. A horrible, crippling, petty disease of the mind which not only clouds the minds, and makes things seem hopeless, but also prevents people affected from seeking help for fear of yes of being singled and branded, but far more than that of feeling that others will not care about there problems or that they would just be piling onto someone else, or that no one will care. The fact is that these cases it is not shameful... its tragic.

    Almost all deaths are sad. An immediate death prevents you from getting closure, but allows you to not have to watch someone suffer. A slow death forces you to watch some one you care about go through pain, but you can come to terms with things. These are the facts. There are individual sorrows specific for each. But in a suicide, often it is coupled with an extra tragedy.. some really needed help... desperately needed help, but they couldn't get it, so there last days, months, even years were full of silent suffering.

    The point is, I'm not sure that in these cases calling thinking about suicide a cowardly act is best. And the other often used way of throwing tired diatribes and cliches at the problem does little to help. So why is this how the topic is covered? other social issues like poverty, drug addiction, racism, spousal and child abuse suffer similar traps, but all have had the media also treat them with care and true understanding just as many times. Why is this topic so different.

    Now I don't know if this is why Howard killed himself, and obviously depression is not the only time suicide is committed. Some times it is decided in a moment. Sometimes it is just rough times, but does that really merit such a large number of people... people not statistics... that make up the whole to have such little understanding.

    The most frustrating part is that clearly when the subject is handled... no matter how roughly... the people making the show, comic or what have you, want to help. I can see that but why, is it so difficult to move past the subjects in main stream popular media, when so many other real world problems are not?

    I'm sorry to be so heavy, and I will certainly understand if you don't want to answer, or even post this. Really I do. Because the fact is that like many things touching on this subject there are no easy answers. Often times there is no real answer at all, easy or hard. I was just reminded of this. It is a question I have often wondered about, because as someone who has known and seen people who have struggled with depression, who have even thought of taking there own life (thankfully none have, but I am relatively young man so that fear is still a bit present) it aggravates me sometimes to see a subject that has affected those close to me not handled well while still trying to help.

    As I said, I can understand not wanting to touch this, leas of all here, no judgements at all. But, whether you answer or even post this, I hope you can at least understand and respect why I would want to ask.

    Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
    Jack

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    1. No problem posting this, Jack. It's thoughtful and honest. But I have no answers.

      I've never thought of suicide as cowardly, just tragic. And unbearably sad.

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    2. Mainstream characters with no powers? I've written Aunt May stories that were just real- world portraits. Same with Flash Thompson. In fact Spider-Man's supporting cast is so varied and interesting and HUMAN that it's easy to write small human stories for any of them. And I love doing it.

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    3. Yes, but those were in a superhero book weren't they? Look I'll just get down to brass tax here: Bernie Rosenthal 12 issue maxi series, chop chop.

      As for the bigger part. I was not trying to point any fingers, just wondering, and well... you are the only person in the media a converse with regularly.

      There was actually an episode of the show Louie which dealt with the subject matter better than most.

      It's fine not to have answers. Like I said, with subjects like this sometime there just aren't any. It is a heart breaking topic, with a tragedy unique to it. Perhaps it was not fair of me to post thios here, or at least in this subject.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    4. Right back at you, Jack. As for it being "not fair" to post that. It was fine, don't give it a second thought.

      Delete
  3. My only experience with Conan is the Schwarzenegger films I watched as a kid. I liked them well enough, but it never blew my mind or anything.

    When it comes to supporting cast members with no powers, I tend to think brevity is the soul of wit. I'd much prefer a short backup story about Betty Brant or JJJ to a series (though I'd be willing to be proven wrong). I probably wouldn't go in for a 12 issue Bernie Rosenthal maxi-series, but a novel could be great. And this brings things back around to the ways you can flesh out characters in a novel much more than a comic.

    I'm actually working on a prose version of a comic script I've written, and I've been surprised by how much more the characters are telling me about themselves. They were all tough and cool for the comic but now they're chatty, chatty, chatty! And it's great. I love both versions. A twenty-two page comic script helps you break it down to the core concept, and that becomes oddly liberating when you're working with prose. So I know I won't veer too far off track using that as a guide.

    Here's hoping both will see print when all is said and done!

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    1. I love writing those short back-ups, David. I did a couple of Aunt May stories back in the day that remain favorites of mine. Just brief explorations into the character's mind and heart.

      Good luck with the projects! May print come soon!

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    2. No one does a better Spider-Man backup story than you, JMD!

      And thanks--I hope print comes soon also!

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    3. David, when that is published, I hold you to the same standard as Dematteis... you have to tell us.

      Little shocked you didn't chime in on the points of character archetypes and whether they are or are not fluid. Oh well, next time.

      take care.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    4. You were shocked, Jack? I hope you've recovered! : )

      If some of my answers have been shorter than usual it's because my workload is pretty massive right now and, once work is done, my brain cells are pretty fried. But keep writing and keep commenting. I'm not giving up Creation Point!

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    5. Actually, I was shocked bu David's lack answering. The subject seemed like one he would get on board with. Oh well, next time.

      Wait... Dematteis are you David??

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    6. No, I'm not David...just confused!!

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    7. That's just what someone pretending to be David would Say...




      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    8. How do you know I'm not YOU? (Now there's a TWILIGHT ZONE episode!)

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    9. Because you had comics published before I was born.( Now there's reporters instincts)




      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    10. But what if it only SEEMS that they were published before you were born? This IS the Twilight Zone, after all.

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    11. Lots of great stuff to go over here and I'm sure I can't do it justice in a single sitting.

      Is JMD really me? Am I really him? Well, consider this: my initials are JDW. So if you flip the "M" to a "W" and switch places with the "D"...

      (Cue TZ music...)

      As far as the superhero label goes, I do tend to consider it specific to the genre that began with pulp roots but evolved into its own thing throughout the 50s-70s, largely because of pressures that were unique to mainstream comics.

      Just to use one example, superhero narratives were perhaps the first to feature recurring villains that simply cannot stay dead for commercial reasons. And because of that, writers began to develop after the fact justifications for why superheroes don't just off the bad guys. Probably the most interesting example is Xavier and Magneto, as their conflict is more like a familial disagreement than an all out war. They have a deep admiration for one another in spite of their differences. FIRST CLASS was such a great encapsulation of that relationship.

      This has also led to Peter and Norman Osborn developing a twisted father-son dynamic (Peter is the genius son that Osborn never had in Harry), Reed sometimes pondering whether Doom is better for Latveria than the alternative, Daredevil coming to the same realization with the Kingpin and street crime...etc, etc.

      It's enriched the characters and their world IMO, and it all came about because (to borrow an analogy from JMD) writers were in a box and had to deepen the mythos. So some of the best stuff didn't necessarily come from geniuses saying, "This would really deepen the relationship!" but some poor bastard up against the wall going, "They've fought each other to a standstill 500 times...why exactly?" (That the poor bastard in question was also a genius was quite a happy accident.)

      So that's something that strikes me as unique to superheroes, though it's bleeding over to other media more and more. But I think knowing that Batman and the Joker, Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, Thor and Loki, Darkseid and Orion, Reed and Doom, etc. are all involved in these complex relationships makes comics a special vehicle for stories like GOING SANE and THE KILLING JOKE. Fans are fascinated with all the different takes on what makes these relationships tick.

      That's all I've got for the moment...but hopefully more soon!

      Best,

      David

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    12. Wait a minute. I just figured it out: I'm NOT David. David...is ME!

      Or not.

      Fascinating stuff, as usual, David. Now let's see if Jack has something to add. (You know he does.)

      And anyone else out there within the sound of my (cyber) voice: the more opinions, the merrier.

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    13. Wait am I Dematteis? is David. Is Dematteis a creation of some guy named Hank Lancaster, and never actually got ay comic published, but is rather a manifestation of his unfulfilled hopes, and we are just artificial fans to make this alter ego seem more convincing? Well, either way I brought it back to TZ, it was getting kind of PKD there for a minute.

      As for your superspeak, very interesting. I think the point of arch nemesis is especially interesting. Thought the ideas of a nemesis that could be you if another path was chosen does predate superheroes, and indeed America, I think this country embraced it more than most. The fact of choice being so engrained into our culture may have something to do with that.

      The idea of recurring villains is I think more of a twentieth century invention of mass media serialization than superheroes. After all, isn't Newman sort of Jerry's Lex Luthor? The idea of a comedic nemesis is not all that different from a heroic one.

      It is interesting you mention pulps though for two reasons. IN one way not really, because everyone acknowledges that pulp heroes gave way to comic book ones. Superman is little more than a mixing of Doc Savage and Flash Gordon, with a little Shadow thrown in for good measure, with FDRs politics and Hugo Danner's powers. He really is. But it is interesting because the two biggest names the Shadow and Doc Savage didn't have more than one recurring villain each, and even that was not very often. Also because Conan, which started this whole thing, was a pulp hero. So I think this may add to the similarities I mentioned earlier, but also that he may have inspired them.

      Superheroes certainly have a certain uniqueness, as do western heroes, and hard boiled detectives, but ion the end, they blur, and have more in common than not. Just look at you list of heroes and villains, which includes Orion and Darkseid, who Dematteis has said in the above that he doesn't really consider them Superheroes. And I can see that. I think in the end it breaks down to the American Heroic ideal, and after that it is hard, perhaps almost impossible, to break it down more than that. The same ideas and ideals burn through out all of them. I mentioned Captain MArvel of Starlin and post in the above to Dematteis based on whether that is a superheroes, because it is hard to place based off the description given. for that matter what about Doctor Who? Recurring villains, inhuman hero with impossible gifts. IS he more Superman or Captain Kirk? For that matteris captain kirk a superhero? How many times has he faced the klingons? Is his ability any more perplexing than Batman?

      As for Mythos... absolutely. In fact I'll take it a step further, my guess is it was often times less "Why do they keep clashing?" and more "HOLY GOD! I HAVE A DEADLINE! okay, okay, what hasn't been done yet. wht was in that book I'm reading!?1 DAmnit all! why'd I get drunk last night?!" The creative process is often demystifying. After all, Didn't Stan Lee just create the FF as his swan song when he intended to leave and just wanted to do what he wanted? Mart Nodell came up with the Green LAntern while on assignment facing down a deadline... and a green lantern that was being used by people worker on a busted subway. Maser of Kung Fu may have been crated while Englehart and Starlin where on Acid. Namor was a reflection of Everett's alcoholism. Kraven was only in Kraven's last hunt because the writer happened to e reading a Marvel Handbook.

      Dematteis, you can comment too. in fact, it's encouraged!

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    14. What I believe, Jack, is that those "accidents" of creation only SEEM like accidents. As I've written, on many occasions, I think stories have lives of their own and they do everything they can to manifest, through the writer, in just the way they want. If you read the intro to the KRAVEN hardcover of a few years ago, you'll see that there were many "accidents" of fate and timing; but all of them contributed to manifesting just the right version of KLH. I was a vehicle, a vessel: the story was in charge.

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    15. My point isn't so much an accident as, well...

      Okay, can we agree that all comic book writers since say 1970 have all been fans? It would at least seem that way. So they have been going over this stuff since they were just fans, not necessarily as concise level. So when the deadline comes... ta-da! the story is there and ready.

      I was saying more that, like much of the creative endeavors, the story is not always, perhaps rarely thought out when a deadline in involved. Its more of an autopilot thing where your mind just gathers things up.

      NOW GO WATCH MASK OF THE PHANTASM OR THE 2002 TWILIGHT ZONE!!! or not, whatever, just do your thing, no one will judge.

      And here, to show I am not completely heartless, is a groovy cover http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBfQS34gCd4

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    16. I think we're expressing the same thing in different words, Jack. When the deadline is looming and the work HAS to be done, the unconscious takes over (or, taken another way, the STORY ITSELF takes over) and unexpected and magical things happen.

      Nice song, by the way.

      I watched one of the 2002 ZONES (the only full episode I could find on YouTube) and, honestly, didn't much care for it. If I find others, I'll certainly give 'em a chance.

      Enjoy the weekend!

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    17. I see what you're saying Dematteis. we need to crush the subversives and dissenters into submission. Sorry, but you;re on your own... it seems like a whole thing.

      As for the song, I didn't write it, the Buckeys did, and that wasn't my voice covering it, it was the ever underrated Lisa Marr doing that. They deserve the praise, not me.

      The fact is, several of those episodes were "eh." I remember one were a family kept being replaced, and turned out to be a SIMs like video game. It fell completely flat. One I liked, if you are still willing to try, was "Azoth the Avenger is a Friend of Mine." Though admittedly that might just be the comic geek in me that likes it.

      AND DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY WEEKEND! be well.

      Wishing you nothing, but goodwill and hipness from here to the stars,
      Jack

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    18. I see you're in the mood to do comedy today, Jack. Maybe you should put together an act and take it on the road...? : )

      At the risk of incurring your formidable wrath...enjoy the rest of your Sunday!

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    19. Never saw the 2000s incarnation of TZ. I remember the 80s show being okay. I watched the 90s OUTER LIMITS in syndication along with TALES FROM THE CRYPT. I was in my teens and it was after midnight, so it seemed fun even when the shows weren't that great.

      MASK OF THE PHANTASM is really good. It's kind of a mish-mash of YEAR ONE and YEAR TWO with a bit of Joker origin stuff from the Burton film. You'll appreciate the World Fair stuff at any rate.

      Re-watched Season One of PERSON OF INTEREST this past month, JMD. I'm telling you it's good stuff! It's got JJ Abrams' big idea sensibilities and Jonathan Nolan's tight storytelling. So it doesn't ramble like LOST and it revels in its concept more than the Batman movies ever did.

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    20. I'd recommend "Wordplay" and "Her Pilgrim Soul" as good starting points for the 80's TZ, David. If you like those, let me know and I'll recommend some more.

      Your recommendations for PERSON OF INTEREST are so strong I'm going to have to check it out. I've sampled individual episodes, but maybe it will play better if I watch a group of them in a row.

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