It's Batman Day! I’ve written at length about my history with the Dark Knight and you can read about it here. Since then, of course, I’ve taken two more journeys into the shadows of the Batcave: the first with the currently-running Robin Lives! mini-series, the second with an episode for the upcoming second season of Amazon’s Caped Crusader animated series. Considering the first Batman story I ever wrote was a coloring book in 1979, I’ve been been hanging out with Bruce Wayne for a very long time. Here’s hoping there are more adventures to come in Gotham City.
I am sure you have been getting this non-stop since the Creature Commandos trailer broke, but are you worried about Marv WOLFMAN resurrecting his lawsuit for you stealing his father's war stories to make that comic?
ReplyDeleteSure, you made the werewolf a southerner, but we all know where it came from.
Also, with Jimmy Carter's 100th birthday only a bit more than a week away, can we expect a post on this site looking back on what iot was like to be a young man on the streets of America when he and Howard the Duck were debating each other? Recalling such a bizarre election, and teh strange realities and fallout of the race, teh debates and Le BEaver?
Jack
That debate was brutal. Howard demolished Jimmy.
DeleteAND...he did it without wearing pants. Not many politicians can claim that. Maybe Grover Cleveland.
DeleteI look forward to your memories on the event being explored next week. Unless those monsters at The Franklin Mint get to you first.
Jack
Since you talked about Batman, there is something I realized about the pointy-Eared weirdo.
ReplyDeletePeople often say there are many types of Batman, many interpretations. That is incorrect. There are only two, Denny O'Neil's, and the rest.
To be clear it is not JUST Denny O'Neil Sure he created this version, but it is also those who were trying to follow that groove for the rest of the 70s, those who were edited by O'Neil in the late 80s and 90s, and those clearly influenced by him, most notably Batman the animated series and Batman Begins.
We can call this the batMAN, because the emphasis is on Bats as a person. who lives, and fails at times. The fleshing out of how extraordinary circumstances and terrible tragedy effect the man.
The other...and just to make this as confusing as possible is the BATman. It is every other version of the character. The golden Age, the Silver Age, that strange era between the 70s and Crisis on Infinite Earths, and yes most things after O'Neil's turn as editor, The Justice League animated series, the DCEU BAtman, and even the weirdly enjoyable Batman Brave and the Bold and even Frank Miller's All-Star Batman.
All those versions may seem cosmetically different, but at their hear they are the same. Batman is maybe an idea, but really just a perfect person. in every conceivable way. A character who despite claims of his biggest fans DOES have a power, to win.
Oddly enough, many of Batman's biggest fans like to draw a sharp distinction between he and Superman, mostly envisioning a Silver Age Superman.
However, the BATman is pretty much just the Silver Age Superman, except instead of pulling a new power out of his ass, or moving a planet he conveniently owns something, or had a contingency plan plan that no one would logically have that saves the day.
He is just the mission, the goal, the fight, the idea. Sure sometimes it is dark and gritty and sometimes it is fun for kids, but it is that same central he is just perfect and can do anything.
In fact, there is another weird similarity. Remember how once upon a time Batman and Robin didn't play with girls, because DC did not think their prepubescent boy readers would want to read that? Them they added a few, but it felt mostly just like hand holding, and was clearly forced? I JUST checked a website, there was not even a Silver Age Catwoman until 1966, and that was in Lois Lane comic, she did not meat Batman until 1967, and had four interactions with Batman before the 1970s
Well, Denny O'Neil and his acolytes changed that. Batman;s heart was conflicted over Talia, because he loved her, he had feelings for Catwoman, an adult feeling relationship with Silver St. Cloud.
That idea continued as O;Neil was editor, with Bats almost matching the Spirit.
After he left editorial? There are a few notable except options, but more lust stories, or brooding about how he can;t open his heart. Still blocking those romances, just now in a way someone who has gone through puberty might. I actually found it very strange that that was a hallmark of the New 52...lack of lovelife, except some flirtations... but they were going for a Batman Begins vibe, where that is his whole thing. The BATman feels like a totem at times.
It is almost like Denny O;Neil created a character out of whole cloth...even though he clearly didn't. Batman written by Denny O'Neil laughed, Batman edited by Denny O'Neil lamented harsh words said to his father just before he died and thought he may have found peace in a small town with a doctor, in both cases he failed multiple times before he succeeded, that is often unimaginable in any other era. Okay...he DID smile in the Silver Age.
Maybe that is just what happens with DC characters that are the most popular, whether it was Superman before Crisis, or Batman after, they just kind of become a certain way. I mean... breaking that weight of being THE biggest selling DC book made Superman get some pretty human stories.
I don't know
Jack
An interesting theory, Jack. Anyone else out there want to contest it?
DeleteHow about this on top of it...
DeleteThere is currently a series called Batman: Off-World. Now, I have not read the series, so this is NOT a qualitative discussion, it could me a masterpiece or complete drek, or any stop in-between. However, I do know the plot, and that is what comes a part of the conversation., which is NOT about whether the story is good or bad, or if it is a good or bad idea. Simply about the mindset of Batman now vs. Denny ONeil.
The premise is that Batman. near the beginning of his career fights an alien in Gotham, and then goes to space to learn how to fight them. Some of that sounds interesting, however it also sounds VERY Silver Age...which is not inherently bad.
The idea of Batman casually turning to Robin and saying, " don;t worry I learned this from an alien," seems very 1957, or pre-Crisis 1980. I think people forget how bonkers that era got.
This shows a BATman who can go off and do something absolutely insane, just because he feels he needs to, and by the end, presumably, overcome that completely inhuman thing and forever be prepared for unspeakable unknowable unimaginable threats from the stars.
Compare that to Denny O'Neils tenure as Batman editor, and we see a different. IN the Legends of the Dark Knight, O;Neil wrote a story where upon meeting superhuman heroes he feels inadequate and tries to find a grounded edge.
Stories like Sanctum, by Mike Mignola, shows him completely out of his depth by magic...something that can literally be taught in the DCU.
IN Cosmic Odyssey, an experienced Batman, who has been to space wit the Justice League, encounters a Parademon in Gotham, and is horrified by his actions and said parademon...an alien life-form he had encountered before.
Now, this was not edited by O'Neil, BUT it was written by Jim Starlin, who was writing Batman that same year, edited by O;Neil.
I don;t think it is any great leap to say that O'Neil felt Batman should be a very mortal and grounded character. AN heir to all things human, IN some ways, I think you could say his idea of Batman was almost a Marvel character. As was his Green Arrow and Green Lantern for that matter.
I also think O'Neil understood a business principle of comics. That even popular characters need a lane. It could be a WIDE lane, but it has to allow for other characters in a shared universe to all have a role.
The UNINTENDED consequences of this type of move is...what is the point of Superman, green lantern, or possibly Adam Strange? What is the point of the Justice League?
continued....
The first appearance of the resurgence of the BATman is in Tower of Babel, by Mark Waid. A very good story. However, it set up that he has a contingency plan to kill every member of the JLA.
DeleteEver since then, he has been shown to have prepped for every hero and villain in the DC universe, and moved him further away from that heir of all things human. Because he knows how to take out Super-Aliens, the daughters of gods, and space cops with Aladdin lamp on their finger.
Once that became the de facto BAtman...the de batco... trait, the O;Neil BAtman who gets tired, been up, and has to strain his mind to be clever on the fly is not longer possible. This prep time is not so different from how the Adam West show had a spray for everything.
For that matter, what about how M+Batman uses his money? I once saw a list of Silver Age Batman contraptions, and they were insane. A flying Bat cave. A bat rocket.
However, under O'Neil it was different, Bruce may not have been a pauper, but it was usually made clear that much of it was in philanthropy. When Brice did use it it was to explain travel for exotic lands, or such things, or buy cars, to buy his way out of some trouble. More of a tool to explain the story than a way to have crazy no-way gadgets.
Flash forward to the 2000s and 2010s, and Batman had technology that can put a hologram over one;s face to realistically convince people that Dick Grayson is Batman, while they stare right at him.
I do not think anyone would deny that O;Neil had a very special relationship with Batman. But I think it was more unique than people realize...in part because of how far reaching and long said relationship was.
Jack
Fascinating stuff, Jack. You can't underestimate the impact Denny had on the character, both as a writer and an editor. He was also a very nice man and one of the smartest people to ever work in comics. A class act all the way.
DeleteAS someone who never got the chance to meet Mr, O'Neil, I only could infer from his work SO I maybe wrong, and feel free to correct, but I noticed these things...
Delete1. O'Neil once said that if superheroes had to exist they would have to look like Neal Adams drew them. However, they would also have to act how he wrote them.
2. He had a clear love of people, even if he was often disappointed, However, that included a real look at them, and what they were like both virtuous and mundane
3. He was clearly a thoughtful person. He thought deeply about things. Not just reciting facts and figures or reciting quotations, but actually thinking about things. Whether that was comic book heroes or the state of the world and why people are as they are.
4. He wrote every story like it was his last. NOt in a morbid way, but in a way that he would be infe if it were his final statement should he have been hit by a bus or something. Even cheapo throw-away fill-in issues had that kind of thought and pride placed in each issue.
All of which make for the quality of an editor that will pull out the best of his writers.
But, if you want an example of the O'Neil style of BAtman...
There is currently a book out called "Death in the Family: Robin LIves" and you can tell that for this writer O;Neil;s Batman is HIS batman.
It involves a scene where Batman asks DIck Grayson if taking him in was a mistake. He reluctantly admits to needing a friend. even if he still seals himself off.
That vulnerability and humanity fits right into 1970s O'Neil Batman. It could also fit in the era he was editing (well, it IS an alternate timeline of that era), especially Legends of the DArk KNight, which O'Neil conceived.
However, Before O'Neil? No. The Almighty adult that needs to have kids look up to him no matter what could not be that man.
The post-O'Neil Batman? Nope. Batman is always right, scoffs at people asking for help and opts to brood, and would never ask Dick that question. Hell, they reconnected it in that era that Bruce FIRED DIck, and that is why he became NIghtwing. Multiple BAt sidekicks have quit because Bruce won't share vital information.
MOst importantly, in the 21st century, Batman is never wrong.
See? Pretty different.
I would also have been curious to know what O'Neil thought of ICON, since McDuffie clearly was inspired by Green LAntern/Green Arrow in the relationship and dynamic between Icon and Rocket.
ALso, I would give money to hear a conversation between him and Ann Nocenti? I don't know what they would say, ut it defiantly would end in a plan to create a new political party that made Bernie Sanders look like Ayn Rand.
Jack.
P.S. It is not Batman, but it is a travesty that the O'Neil penned Daredevil #20, "FOG," by Denny O'Neil is not better remembered, It is one of the most heartbreaking comics ever, and just overflowing with Denny O'Neils favorite thing...humanity.
Delete"Humanity" is the word when it comes to Denny's work, Jack. Well said all around.
The story that I think best captures O'Neil's view of the humanity of the Bat, over other eras is the Knightfall saga.
DeleteNo, I don't think it is the best Batman story O'Neil was involved in, though it is fun. I am also aware that multiple writers were doing most of the ground work on the issues.
However, O'Neil did create Azrael, wrote most of the Bruce Wayne parts,and WAS the editor, so he certainly had major input in how it would play out.
First, the villain of the story is Bane, Much like Doomsday, he is a means to an end, to take the main character off the board so the real villain that ties to the actual themes of the story can be brought in, in this case Azrael.
It is no American secret, that the story was a reaction to complaints about older characters that were cropping up at the time "why doesn't Batman kill?" "does he really need Robin?" etc.
Azrael as Batman was everything human stripped from the character.
He was nothing but the mission, wwhcih can be a compelling story, the Shadow is highly dedicated to his mission, O'Neil even wrote The Shadow, but this went further.
Even before he was Batman, he was only a mission. He never left the cave except to fight...Shadow interacted with others as Lamont Cranston... it is even stated that he never went into the mansion. He went into fugue states where he made and did things for the mission, so he did not even have down time.
He forced Robin away...The Shadow had Margo Lane, and a whole network of agents... leaving no one to interact with in the field even. No one to talk him down when he got nuts, or connect with people.
He was not only willing to kill, he shrugged the possibility off willy-nilly, no questioning where the line is, or pondering on the loss of a human life.
He met Catwoman, and was physically attracted to her, but clearly lacked the emotional maturity to really have a view past attraction. The interactions are weird.
Conversely, over with Bruce, with most issues actually written by O'Neil, we see a self-loathing and self-pitying Bruce. First he is a crippled man, trying to do his mission. Calling in people he knew and trusted.
However, by the end the weight of it is too much. Causing Alfred to leave, because he thinks Bruce is being too self-destructive, and cares too much about Bruce to watch.
Then Bruce has to rebuild himself, retrain, reach out to his masked loved ones, Nightwing, Robin, Robin, and Catwoman, and admit his mistake. How does he defeat him? Through out thinking him, in a tale written by O'Neil. He then admits he needs to get his head clear, and makes amend by having Dick Gray son, his adopted son, take over the roll for a while, in a moment of love.
And how did it all start? Bruce was exhausted, unable to keep going. How very Human, and it was the biggest event Denny O'Neil ever did.
But of course, the best example of al time that show's O'Neil's views on Batman...not in the same contrasting manor...is "There is No Hope in Crime Alley, " Where we find out it was not the death of Bruce;s Parent that pushed him into being Batman, but rather that Leslie Tompkins caring for him after wards, and that in turn seeing that motivated her to trying to take care of trying to prevent another tragedy.
That is the core. O'Neil's batMAN, both written and edited, is a human acting as a compassionate protector, and the others are a crusading symbol of order.
Jack
Fascinating...
DeleteIf you don;t mind just a little more pro-Denny O'Neil rambling, there is something else I believe made him a good Batman editor.
DeleteI have said before that one of the unintended consequences of the very important residual system Marvel and DC set up in the 80s was that it kept experienced writers from becoming editors. That mentorship you spoke of getting in your early days from Len Wein and O'Neil himself is not anywhere near as common. Or at least, not as much hands on knowledge.
That is a part of it, but it is not just THAT he wrote Batman, but WHEN. He did it in the, as coined on this site, New Hollywood era of comics. The 70s. He was one of those experimenters. ONe of those free men.
I think he knew what frustrated creators, what they wanted, and
I think that gave him the ability to know how to play the game, and give into the system some, and et things for his creators .
For instance, unlike Superman, Batman only had one event a year, and it only lasted one month.
Also, whole people have talked about the brilliance of Legends of the Dark K Night from a marketing standpoint, because the story arcs could be followed easier, and...sure...they forget the TRUE brilliance. They were the type of stories that may not work in a Batman on going. Sometimes more mature, sometimes slower, sometimes more experimental. And that is saying something, because the main books in his days as editor took some unique turns.
He also wanted to give creators at least a taste of what he had back then.
Well, tomorrow is Jimmy Carter's 100th Birthday. Looks like we are going to have a centennial president.
Can't wait for your reflections on his race against Howard the Duck and Gerald Ford. Of course, again, those monsters at the Franklin Mint silence you.
They will go to any heinous depths, the war crimes they will commit to enforce their commemorative chess set based history manipulation.
Jack
I heard CNN will be doing a documentary about the Duck's campaign. I remember working the phones tirelessly on his behalf.
DeleteAnd thanks for the tributes to Denny: He certainly deserves them.
Well, you cannot really talk about Batman in any really honest way, unless you talk about Denny O'Neil.
DeleteThe last thing I will say about him is that he respected the readers intelligence. Not just in the normal way, but also their emotional intelligence.
Even when he was thinking it was all 12-year-olds (based off his word), and writing Green Lantern/Green Arrow. In his first story, which was about racism, it was not shown in a cartooinsh way. Not even an Archie Bunker way. It was Hal Jordan, the STAR OF THE BOOK, just not having realized the reality. That is more accurate and realistic than many stories across media written today on the subject intended for adults.
He believed the audience could grapple with how inaction or not paying attention can be damaging, and how not all issues are caused by obvious problems.
I mentioned Daredevil #220 being one of the best daredevil stories ever. IN it Heather commits suicide. It is not the typical sermon, it shows a woman being desperate. Yes, she is an alcoholic, but that is shown not as a character flaw, but a tragedy. She reaches out to Matt, and he does not respond until it is too late, and in some frustrated ways.
He trusted the reader to take that in, with all it's complexity. Even calling back to the fact that Heather had been treating Heather poorly in previous runs. Frank Miller is said to have introduced moral grayness to the character, but that story is as Grey as Daredevil stories get.
Even as editor. Three is a Batman story by Doug Moench which centers around Harvey Bullock going on a date with a doughnut waitress, who looked like a doughnut waitress around Bullock's age (late 40s early 50s) would.
Most of the comics was them building a relationship. then she dies by a single act of violence.
Another, a tie-in to the GENESIS event, showed Bruce dealing with genuine despair, not just brooding, actual deep thoughts on the matter.
Because he trusted his readers to want a story with a human side,
In recent years, when people bring up how much to do with his money for Gotham, many Batman creators say "because no one wants to read that story."
Aside from the possibility of it being a subplot in multiple issues, that seems to be idea. If I had to guess, probably a dollar and cents look at things. It is an action book, people want action.
Truth be told... they may be right, The internet seems to have made many fans want their books to fit a narrow path. And are often very vocal about ti.
However, O'Neil was always willing to through those dice and gamble on the reader.
A luxury of pre-internet writing and editing I suppose.
Your talk of working on the phones for Howard the Duck makes me think of Travis Bickle meeting up with Howard.
Jack
They got along pretty well till Travis started yelling "Duck Season!"...took out a gun...and started shooting at Howard. Beverly tackled Bickle and saved the day.
DeleteBelieve it or not, in my mind’s eye I can see a Frank Brunner penciled DeNiro putting on an Elmer Fudd hat.
DeleteJack