On sale this week (tomorrow, if I'm not mistaken): the collected edition of Death in the Family: Robin Lives! What would have happened if Jason Todd survived the Joker's attack in the classic Jim Starlin-Jim Aparo story? Rick Leonardi and I answer that question—and it may not be what you expect. Cover by Mike Mignola!
(Folks have asked if there's a sequel to this story brewing. No—but I've got lots of ideas and I'd love to write one. Time will tell...)
A sequel? Sure, if there is interest.
ReplyDeleteBut what about tore work with Mignola?
Jack
I've never worked with Mike. Only met him once, many years ago, at a convention. He seems to have his own Hellboy universe to tend to and more power to him!
DeleteHe also has a second universe, the “Lord Baltimore”universe. The concept being…in broad strokes… is that WWI is called on a count of vampires. This also signals a rise of monsters and magic across the continent.
DeleteI actually think I may like it more than Hellboy…and I like Hellboy. If you are looking for a good fantasy/horror read I would suggest it.
Also, with the F.F. Movie coming up, if you have never read Mark Waid’s run, that is really good as well.
WOW… a comic reader only giving praise to comics he actually likes? Is it bizarro day?
Jack
I've never read Mark's FF run, but I have no doubt it's...uh...fantastic. He's a terrific writer and a good guy.
DeleteYou know, people have said that the trailer for the new F.F. movie captures the retro-future vibe of the Lee-Kirby F.F..
DeleteI think that does the duo a disservice. Yes, they had a lot of far out and crazy concepts. But their world was more complex.
There were plenty of stories that included a more grounded, and grity-ish New York, a sort of Dylan's New York (no I have not seen the movie, and do not plan to).
Hell, issue #4 has johnny going to a flop house in the Bowery.
people foret how lived in the F.F.'s world could feel in the 60s.
Jack
I hear you, but I think the trailer captured the SPIRIT of the FF. Loved it. (Good point about the Bowery flop house.)
DeleteMy point was less abut the trailer, and more about the reaction. More specifically, in how it reflects the mental view of the F.F., that they are all one thing.
DeleteHowever, I would argue that part o the reason they were so popular, and endure for so long is because they were many things.
Even the mythic "This Man, This Monster" is mostly in a more lived in part of New York, cutting away to see Johnny Storm dealing with some jerks in a college coffee house.
The first Black Panther story, despite the sci-fi background, is more of a fairy tale. And I mean that in the best possible way.
The Namor stuff at time birders on soap opera...proof of Stan;s involvement
Jack
Much as I love the 60s Spider-Man stuff (especially Romita's first year or so), for me the FF is the pinnacle of 60s Marvel.
DeleteThor came close for a while (Greek gods, the High Evolutionary, Ego the Living Planet, the Colonizers from Rigel...the hits just kept coming), but Thor himself, as a character, doesn't come close to Reed, Sue, Johnny, and Ben.
Thor is the hardest of the classic Marvel characters. For me at leas, his stories can be very hit or miss. Even writers I really like have had trouble pulling me in.
DeleteHowever, those Silver Age days were wild. Interestingly enough, THAT is the book Kirby was clearly driving, but everyone wants to claim it was the F.F./
Any way, the F.F., Lee once said he saw it as a last chance to do what he wanted, and I think it really shows, because it is sort of a nexus for the Marvel Universe.
-A lot of those Ant-Man/GIant-Man and teh Wasp stories are slightly reminiscent of Reed and Sue.
-Iron Man absorbed a lot of the early Cold War stuff. Not to mention Ben's feeling unworthy of love and self-pitying
-Spider-Man and Daredevil got the previously mentioned grittier New York, as well as the soap opera elements. Not to mention Pete's adolescent element.
-Hulk was clearly inspired by Thing's success. Both the "where does the man end and monster begin" stuff, as well as elf-loathing and falling back on monster comics.
-Early X-Men comics feel very much like Fantastic four comics, right down to Beast's early personality being far more like the Thing, than the one we came to know
-Even Dr. Strange with stories like Diablo, Miracle Man, and Doom's own mystic history.
-Even Silver Surfer, aside form just spin-off, I think you can see seeds of his solo series in the Hate-Monger story as well as Mole Man;s tragic origin, Namor;s belief his people had been destroyed, and the story of Franklin Storm returning.
Not to mention, the Avengers did not really become the "premiee superhero team" in universe until Shooter took over in the late 70s.. Before that it was a rehab team for former villains, or those perceived as villains. SO in those days, even in unversed, the F.F. were THE team to call.
JAck
I may be misremembering, but wasn't the early Beast the intellectual who always used big words? And, of course, the original Avengers were clearly meant to be a team like JLA. I suspect Stan realized he'd have more leeway (no pun intended. Or maybe it was!) using more obscure characters and shifted the focus later on.
DeleteYes, the Avengers started out as a type of JLA.... but by issue #16 i was "Cap;s kooky quartet." From then until the mid to lte 100s, most characters that appeared were rehabbing supervillains.
DeleteWhich I actually think was the more interesting premise.
And I have always suspected where Busiek got the idea for the Thunderbolts.
However, in the days of the original characters, I would argue they were still never written as id they had the same status in universe as the Fantastic Four,
As for the X-Men, Yes Beast was written as a big-word spouting intellectual very early on, BUT no from the beginning. IN issue #1..and maybe #2... he comes off as a little gruff. Especially when Jean shows up. I remember because it seemed to weird.
Yes, Stan was still finding the voices for the characters then but...still worth noting.
Also, the first depiction of mutants being directly persisted was Beast in #8.
Jack
Fun fact: The very first back issue I ever bought (in the 8th grade) was X-Men #1...which cost me a whopping THREE dollars! (And, no, I don't have it anymore.)
DeleteJeez, three dollars? In the 1960s?
DeleteThat was 25 times its cover price, and it would not have been out THAT long…a couple years maybe.
I wonder why the mark up on what was then a c-grade comic series.
Jack
Don't know. I'm just grateful my mother gave me the money! (Just checked and $3.00 in 1967 is about $30.00 today. Pretty significant investment for an 8th grader.) (Well, an 8th grader's mom!)
DeleteThe equivalent of about $25.00 today.
DeleteWhen I was a teenager, I bought back issues from 30 years prior, and rarely paid more than a dollar or two. And that was long after fandom became a thing.
I even passed on buying the first appearance of Havok for about 22 dollars, because it was almost all the money pay I had on me, and did not want to pay that much for a comics could get in a collection.
What avatar of greed was charging you that king of upcharge in 1966 or 67. When the books were mostly ciewed as disposable crap.?
Jack
Here is an uninteresting side note…
DeleteBack in the Day in Hamtramck….one of the two cities within a city of Detroit… there was a used book store. And it had a bunch of back issues. This was the 60s and early 70s, so comic stores were not really a thing.
But, a lot of the guys from detroit who went into comics hung out there. Arvell Jones…who is a hell of a nice guy…told me about it…this was long before my time.
But I found out at a funeral last year that a guy I knew from my local comic shop went there once, but this was after those days.
And by that point you had to be okayed to go up there, because by that point how much they were worth was becoming a thing, and they wanted to ke sure they would not be stolen.
But, back when guys like Arvell Jones and Rick’s Buckler were going, they just let a bunch of teenager hangout up there all day drawing.
Jack
There was a guy who advertised in the back of (if I'm remembering correctly) the New York Times Book Review. At the time, I didn't even know you could buy back issues! Soon after I discovered a local bookstore, filled with science fiction and fantasy, that also had lots of old comics...and I became a frequent customer.
DeleteJust saw your comment about the book store. Sounds very much like the place in Brooklyn, which was called My Friend's Book Store. Not a comic book shop...those wouldn't appear for quite some time. (I found out, years later, that Paul Levitz also frequented the place.)
DeleteI'd sometimes cut Junior High in the afternoon and instead walk (several miles) to the book store, going through early Marvels and spending my lunch money on a back issue. They kept them in boxes behind the counter and watched you as you thumbed through.
Fascinating. A book about fandom would be a great read.
DeleteMy fandom was...personal. I didn't hang out with other comic book fans (aside from when I was much younger, at the age where everyone read comics). It was something that was mine alone and it made it even more special to me.
It is interesting.
DeleteAs I alluded to, fandom...at least with comics, sci-fi, and fantasy...sort of mingled with the counter culture. I don't out right think that is strange.
I have long hypothesized that the REAL thing that makes fans out of these genres are not any of the usual markers, but one simple thing. A desire to have stories, and explore the human condition, through atypical ways, because it gives a different outlook.
There, nice and simple, and that is why fandoms tend to be my diverse in types of people than is usually recognized.
Counter cultures usually have that same desire for a different outlook.
Comics, sci-fi, and fantasy...horror too... in the 1970s took a pretty heady turn.
But as hippies faded, it changed. Though, those fandoms remained with those roots. They just became their own type of more subtle counter culture.
But what happens when the counter culture wears off? Since..I would say, these fandoms have gotten increasingly less counter to the culture. AS such changes have been made, some good, some bad, many neutral.
It is just interesting. Jim Starlin's examination on death through a character literally being in love with her an wanting to sacrifice the universe to her., and ways of dealing with trauma from Vietnam, is whittled down to a blockbuster... with vaguely anti-environmentalist vibes . His criticism of the political and social nature of the Catholic church in Warlock is essentially turned into a joke villain.
Marvel spent 2004-2008 using the Avengers, and big events to critique the War on terror. It was turned into a Captain America movie, that was an excuse to see the heroes fight.
Ann Innocent said that she never read comics before entering Marvel offices, but her first day she took a look, and thought they were really subversive. It is hard to see her saying that about the MCU, or any of comics trying to capture that spirit for a new audience.
I am not saying these movies are bad, or the decisions are wrong. The creators don;t mind, why should I?
BUT, I don't think anyone can deny the fandom, and the type of stories created for said fandom.
It is not the first time. Science fiction in the 50s and 60s started asking questions, in the 70s it became associated with internal self-probing.
Now it is mostly associated with big budget films and Sci-Fi magazines often have stories where the science fiction is almost an after thought.
Again, not good or bad...but different. You do lose something in going mainstream, but you can gain things as well.
Jack
Are you saying that you view Denny O'Neil as some kind of pulp-Steinbeck?
ReplyDeleteThat is an interesting theory you have.
Jack
The only Steinbeck I've read is THE PEARL, and that was way back in Junior High (I remember nothing about it), so I can't offer any opinions.
DeleteThere are a few things I find interesting about that.
DeleteNot that you have only read one work by Steinbeck, that is fine. But rather that the book was PEARL, and not Grapes of Wrath or OF MICE AND MEN...which seem more likely. Especially since one or the other is often required reading. But...what ever. Life is weird.
Interesting side note: If you want to know how much the world has changed, there is a Looney Tunes short where Tweetie Bird is seen reading a copy of "Canary Row." This was a play off the Steinbeck book, CANARY ROW. SO at that point, a novelist was so much a part of the public consciousness that it was assumed people would get a pun, based on one of his lesser known works.
Crazty, right?
Put, what I find most interesting is that after reading only one book of Steinbecks's, which you don't remember much of, you felt confident to form a theory of Denny O'Neil ...a writer you know, and to a degree you say mentored you.. was somewhat akin.
I guess that is just how much a part of the American psyche the Grapes of Wrath is. (wink)
JAck
And don't forget the famous line, "Which way did he go, George? Which way did he go?" from OF MICE AND MEN, which became a staple of classic Warner Bros cartoons.
DeleteThey used that a lot. As a kid, I knew it was supposed to be a reference to something, but I always assumed it was an old sitcom, or comedy or something.
DeleteImagine how strange it was making that connection in a high school English class, while reading "Of Mice and Men."
Pretty different direction than I thought.
JAck
Who knew Looney Tunes were educational...?
DeleteAnd a pop-culture trauma time bomb.
DeleteNot many cartoons can say that.
Jack
“Our Father who art in nature, who has given the gift of survival to the coyote, the common brown rat, the English sparrow, the house fly and the moth, must have a great and overwhelming love for no-goods and blots-on-the-town and bums, and Mack and the boys. Virtues and graces and laziness and zest. Our Father who art in nature.”
DeleteThere you go Dematteis, some Steinbeck.
But, if we must go beyond the medium of books, this is the kind of thing that makes me think of O'Neil...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jxLp9PHvDQ
and the classic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyEuarFhpcE
Seems like much of his take to heroes is summed up there. maybe it is just me.
Jack
By the way, that first Steinbeck quote is not necessarily connected to Denny O’Neil, I just think it is neat.
DeleteJack
I know the famous Fonda scene, but I've never seen the other one. Pretty damn touching.
DeleteSounds like there is a classic movie or book you may soon watch or see.
DeleteThe real, question is, does this make the Denny O’Neil comparison seem more apt?
Jack
I'll have to ponder that question more deeply...
DeleteThe FF trailer looked really good. I like the retro-futuristic vibe. I do agree that the classic comic book stories featured a more diverse NYC. That said, I'm just thrilled that the FF has a different look than the MCU, which to be honest, is kind of bland lately. You have breakouts like GOTG, but for the most part, it's all very same-ish in a way I can't quite put my finger on. FF looks distinct, and that's a very good start.
ReplyDeleteHonestly I wish each Marvel franchise was its own thing again. Comics can pull off a lot with a shared universe because they're mass produced, but given how expensive films are, and few and far between, it might be best to focus on the featured characters rather than always looking to the next team-up.
Even in the comics you run into certain difficulties with crossovers, like Spider-Man would have the Punisher locked up if he wasn't a popular character in his own right.
--David
I'm a big fan of stand-alone stories, in comics and movies. I don't need everything to tie into one massive tale. Just tell me a great story about the character whose name is in the title.
DeleteAgreed!
Delete--David
I hope we do get a sequel to Robin Lives, it was phenomenal. You and Rick have great creative chemistry. I can't recall you having worked together before...I know he did a few ASM issues with DeFalco and they are unsurprisingly great. And he's just gotten better with time! I felt like his art here was a cross between Aparo and Sienkiewicz, fluid, intense, emotional and a bit psychedelic in all the right places.
ReplyDelete--David
I'd love to write a sequel (I know where this is all going), David, but I don't expect it to happen.
DeleteI worked with Rick on the Wonder Woman issue of the JUSTICE LEAGE: GODS AND MONSTERS mini I co-wrote with Bruce Timm.
I'll track that issue down. I want to say I read the entire series when it came out, but I may be mistaken.
Delete--David
There was also a collection containing all the stories, but I don't know if it's still in print.
DeleteHappy to see that it is!
Deletehttps://www.amazon.com/Justice-League-Gods-Monsters-Animated/dp/1401267866
Awesome, thanks for the link!
Delete--David
Here is an a question, Dematteis, you have mostly been free from the month to month stuff for a while now.
ReplyDeleteDo you ever miss..maybe even crave during writer's block sessions...the barriers editors put up for the established characters, especially in main series, that could force creative solutions?
Are you ever like, "I am really enjoying this indie book I am writing, but I am stuck. If only Denny O'neil was calling about deadlines, while telling me DC won;t allow us to do that with BAtman."
Jack
I still face those kinds of limitations on the mini-series I write, and the animation projects.
DeleteAs for writer's block: Don't believe in it. I've learned, over the years, that those times when I APPEAR to be blocked are the times I need to take a breath, step away, and let my unconscious do its work.
All that said, I love batting around ideas with editors (both in comics and TV), stumbling across solutions together. It's a joy.
There is an old reporter saying…
Delete“There is. O such thing as writer’s block, start typing.”
Jack